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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 166 28.77%
Deist 18 3.12%
Theist 23 3.99%
Agnostic 120 20.80%
Atheist 250 43.33%
Voters: 577. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-14-2014, 09:09 AM   #5026
mostlyharmless
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Phillip,

I wasn't offended by anything you wrote; I did not mean to come across as harsh on my criticism of the MRI studies. Actually, I think we agree on nearly everything. Perhaps I shouldn't have written such a long post, Sunday afternoon and all. Unfortunately now it is Monday morning and since I too am a hard worker, this will have to be a short post.

By the way, that book is

Where mathematics comes from
George Lakoff & Rafael Nunez

Apologies to the authors, but I rather thought it was dreadful. I'd have to read it again for a fair critique, but my last reading of it reminded me of eating spoiled fish, an experiment best not repeated.




PS sorry to hear about the loss of your unicorn

Last edited by mostlyharmless; 07-14-2014 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Added book reference
 
Old 07-14-2014, 03:33 PM   #5027
jamison20000e
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You seem to think my last few gloomy like no need to go back to the trees then nuke them to what we'll be...

but, truth and believe are no different in infinity so perhaps I should let it be...

Quote:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and ...
Einstein is

Quote:
... not sure about the former. ... Human beings must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it.
ooh yeah baby

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-14-2014 at 04:29 PM. Reason: infinite
 
Old 07-14-2014, 06:26 PM   #5028
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
You seem to think my last few gloomy like no need to go back to the trees then nuke them to what we'll be...

but, truth and believe are no different in infinity so perhaps I should let it be...
Actually I think we may be getting somewhere now. It's not that I think those concepts are gloomy. I think they are just loose and evasive because such concepts remove the validity and need for any rules. While this is over simplification Infinity is basically similar to Singularity in that the closer we get to either the math breaks down because it is a language that does not yet have the vocabulary of those realms/concepts. Maybe it never will but what matters now is that we presently don't have the means to build that vocabulary to get the math right. So it is just too convenient to dismiss things by casting them into infinity or singularities which is no major crime since that's what scientists/experts do too but primarily just to have a word that doesn't sound too dumb to describe ignorance of something we cannot yet understand.

The point is that just because we don't understand these extremes that does not invalidate what we do know with a high degree of confidence. I do realize (or think I do) that when you say truth and belief are the same you are qualifying that by casting them into infinity. I'm pretty confidant you're not one of those absurd "The Secret" guys. Those people actually believe that belief and truth are one and the same in the here and now.
 
Old 07-14-2014, 10:17 PM   #5029
jamison20000e
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Talking :slight tangent:

"How do you hide money from a hard core republican? Put it in a science book they'll never look there."

Nations and religions seem for extremists or learning...

LOL: http://southpark.cc.com/full-episode...0&sort=airdate\let-go-let-gov

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-14-2014 at 11:18 PM.
 
Old 07-18-2014, 03:45 AM   #5030
Philip Lacroix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharlmess
By the way, that book is
Where mathematics comes from
George Lakoff & Rafael Nunez
Thanks!

Quote:
PS sorry to hear about the loss of your unicorn
Don't worry, it wasn't mine and it seems that unicorns can't even be lost: apparently, according to various myths, they are untamable and cannot be captured at all (except by a virgin young woman, which might give a Freudian meaning to the myth itself).
 
Old 07-18-2014, 04:38 AM   #5031
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Virgins are harder to find than unicorns, these days.
 
Old 07-18-2014, 10:32 AM   #5032
mostlyharmless
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Quote:
Don't worry, it wasn't mine
True enough, just like my cats; they merely cohabit with me, though unlike the unicorn they are neither green, six-legged nor rhetorical. Still, I'd miss them terribly if they got lost.
@brianL Are you sure? Like so many things discussed in this thread, that's a hard thing to verify and must frequently be taken as a matter of faith.
 
Old 07-18-2014, 12:52 PM   #5033
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A pretending virgin maybe just as nice.
 
Old 07-18-2014, 01:46 PM   #5034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharmless View Post
@brianL Are you sure? Like so many things discussed in this thread, that's a hard thing to verify and must frequently be taken as a matter of faith.
Well, I have to confess I haven't searched for either of those things very thoroughly.
 
Old 07-18-2014, 02:43 PM   #5035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
A pretending virgin maybe just as nice.
The look on those faces who think those people are still v.....s is worth pretending. They think they will win but in reality they fail just like the rest at the end of day! Their superior illusion vanishes like Vanish for washing mashines.
 
Old 07-18-2014, 07:03 PM   #5036
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Only 99.???...% to 100.???...% "absolute," we will die after going with the times... whoops did it again I blame Arcane.

Here's an "absolute," I have one egg; what is one egg, what's it weigh, how many "molecules," are they changing???

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-18-2014 at 08:48 PM.
 
Old 07-18-2014, 08:16 PM   #5037
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Can you elaborate on
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
... those absurd "The Secret" guys ...
"Is Out There?"

Last edited by jamison20000e; 07-18-2014 at 08:18 PM.
 
Old 07-19-2014, 08:41 AM   #5038
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
Only 99.???...% to 100.???...% "absolute," we will die after going with the times... whoops did it again I blame Arcane.

Here's an "absolute," I have one egg; what is one egg, what's it weigh, how many "molecules," are they changing???
Ahhh now we are beginning to see why numbers are so important. They are amazingly simple things having only one attribute - quantity. It doesn't matter if we are discussing the 1 as it is written on your computer screen or the 1 on mine. If a thing exists and can be defined as singular, it is "one" whatever else it also is.

You're posing what amounts to a "chicken and the egg" problem and that is easily solved in a similar manner by defining terms. What is an egg?

Well Wiki says:
Quote:
An egg is the organic vessel containing the zygote, resulting from fertilization of the ovum, in which an animal embryo develops until it can survive on its own, at which point the animal hatches.
It goes on to point out that while most species that have sex, create eggs, only certain species "lay eggs" or deposit them somewhere outside of their bodies. This is a prerequisite for being hatched.

Ahh so "egg" is not a very specific term so we have to specify from what animal it was laid. If we do so by specifying "chicken", we soon realize "chicken" too is not a very precise term. No problem. Science has us covered because such specificity is, or can be, important let's define it as Genus Gallus gallus domesticus. So if the problem is rewritten as "What came first, the Gallus Gallus Domesticus or the egg of the Gallus Gallus Domesticus" it is obvious the Gallus-Chicken must come first because only a chicken defined as Gallus can impart Gallus DNA into the egg, since it requires a 2nd entity, a male Gallus. Further up the evolutionary line insufficient attributes match to call it Gallus. Furthermore from observation and testing we are fairly certain eggs don't hatch, but rather must BE hatched, sat on and cared for by their Mothers.

So to some extent this age old "problem", if we are to wrest it from the hands of Philosophy and actually attempt to solve it, is one of defining terms and it only a "problem" outside the possible mechanisms of DNA. Chickens, including gallus domesticus, are a continuum.

In your posited "egg", is this an ovum of a specific species or is this a concept embracing ALL eggs? If it is a concept EGG, then it does not matter one whit, how big it is, or if it is blue or green or whatever other color, and certainly how many molecules is unimportant because the only thing important to the definition of being an egg, is that is has the potential to replicate.

I already posited a similar breakdown in which it can be said that if all the atoms of your body were sorted out, not one of them would be alive but, obviously, assembled in the right order under the right circumstances has the potential to be You, since just a moment ago it WAS you. The individual atoms are unimportant to the whole created because what we define as "You" also has qualifiers as in "Are you alive or not alive". Complex systems grow out of simpler ones. Some parts are interchangeable, some are superfluous. Changing a shingle on your home does not make it a "new house"

This too is an age old thought experiment. If over a period of 12 years all of the planks of the HMS Beagle, one by one, are replaced with new ones from all over the world on it's travels, is it still the HMS Beagle? If not when did it cease to be?

What answers one gets, depends a great deal on definitions of terms and what questions one asks.
 
Old 07-19-2014, 08:50 AM   #5039
enorbet
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@Jamison20000e - Surely you are familiar with this "tome of higher learning" <sarc>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%28book%29
 
Old 07-19-2014, 09:07 AM   #5040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
The look on those faces who think those people are still v.....s is worth pretending. They think they will win but in reality they fail just like the rest at the end of day! Their superior illusion vanishes like Vanish for washing mashines.
Now I'm wondering... ever seen - THIS - I'm not at all positive about whether this is safe where YOU work.
 
  


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