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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 168 28.92%
Deist 18 3.10%
Theist 23 3.96%
Agnostic 120 20.65%
Atheist 252 43.37%
Voters: 581. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-22-2014, 10:48 AM   #4936
jamison20000e
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(Should start a new thread to get Linux on that thing. There was a mention in suggestions, of "Reply"s that would save themselves if something went wrong? Good feature.)

Looks like a well thought, beautiful book. Too bad we can't decipher all of it? Unlike most of "holy" books that contain no theories! Just vengeance, control, elf tales, &c.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 11:51 AM   #4937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
No i am trying to show enorbet and few more that they treat science like believers treat religion - zero questions asked just blind dogmatic acceptance! I wonder what would they think of this science book...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript
By definition "dogma" is anathema to logic and evidence, since it is considered incontrovertibly true usually by the "grace and wisdom" of some "higher authority". Dogma is anti-science since continued questioning is necessarily paramount to Science's success.

Example - A = A, or 1 + 1 = 2 is not dogma, it is definition That it is incontrovertibly true isn't because some book or divine being said so, it is because they are merely symbols that give a name to recognized quantities. From 1 + 1 = 2, everything else is derived as relationships of those quantities. Even on such a fundamental level, theorems can be falsified, or shown to work only within certain contexts. Science follows this doctrine. I have confidence in Science, not belief, because I can follow it, tested at every step, from the base fundamentals as far as I care to learn the language.

I have some confidence in things which I can't follow completely (example - Quantum Loop Gravity) but it is limited both by my level of mathematical skills and reading what the skills of others more advanced than me point out. I am a fan of Lee Smolin but he is a human being, not a deity. FWIW I am also a fan of both Stephen Hawking and Carl Sagan though they have nearly juxtaposed ideas about aliens. If I were a dogmatic believer, I would have to choose only one. I don't.

Regarding that book which though worthy of some fascination, is only a trivial, idle interest since until someone succeeds in deciphering it, if it is not in fact mere nonsense or for some other reason, impossible to decipher, what value can it possibly have? Even deciphered, so what? It was apparently written in the early 1400s when many people still believed the Earth was flat and that demons roamed the planet....Oh wait, many still do believe in demons

Once more, Arcane, you choose to cherry pick these fringe or occult-laden items to challenge Science. They aren't even in the same century let alone the same "league". They present exactly zero challenge to anything of any real and lasting importance.

Last edited by enorbet; 06-22-2014 at 11:54 AM.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 12:26 PM   #4938
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Over all religion tells what to think. Science says what should we think? To me why the world could be a better place if we take religions out of law ("nation\state" it's freedom not sheepdom) and positively out of schools!

Last edited by jamison20000e; 06-22-2014 at 12:30 PM.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 01:16 PM   #4939
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Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
Over all religion tells what to think. Science says what should we think?{...}
It seems like people(enorbet for example) are misunderstanding my posts recently for some reason(probably because of my not so great english due to time forget). Let's try with quotes then explain:
Quote:
Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science. ~Edwin Powell Hubble, The Nature of Science, 1954
Quote:
Rivers, ponds, lakes and streams they all have different names, but they all contain water. Just as religions do they all contain truths. ~Muhammad Ali
BUT if you will take out reason
Quote:
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish. ~Author Unknown
same applies for science - give him incomplete information and he will waste time doing it wrong when it could be done properly.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 01:31 PM   #4940
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Your perception seems warped by religions up bringing, smart enough to learn (like me) I see. Truths can mask wrongs. For the most part only charity of (proper) education can fix!!! Science learns from mistakes so to religion but only one will die...

Last edited by jamison20000e; 06-22-2014 at 01:33 PM.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 01:43 PM   #4941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
same applies for science - give him incomplete information and he will waste time doing it wrong when it could be done properly.
Information will always be incomplete and science never claims to have the complete set of information. That exactly is the point, science will always be what the currently available set of information allows. Newton did not have the knowledge available to describe space and time in the way that Einstein did, but he build a pretty accurate model of time and space with the information available to him.

Religion starts with a set of truths and can never really change without becoming a different religion, parting the believers in two groups instead of fully adapting to the new information. Even the worst scientist will at some point have to admit that his hypothesis is disproved (if that is the case) and move on with a better model, just to be able to further work in his field.
This does not apply to religion, one can base his religion on already disproved "truths" and simply ignore the fact that they have been disproved, without any consequences but showing some ignorance. For some weird reason ignorance is tolerated in some few fields (religion, anti-vaccers, climate change deniers, ...), but finding only one ignorant scientist sheds a bad light on any science.

Last edited by TobiSGD; 06-22-2014 at 01:45 PM.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 02:39 PM   #4942
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{...}but only one will die...
This is not only utopia but absurd. They can co-exist as long as they allow compromises.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 02:57 PM   #4943
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"Utopia," without which would you say? Fuck compromise killing as (evolved) humans is wrong!
 
Old 06-22-2014, 03:02 PM   #4944
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"Utopia," without which would you say? Fuck compromise killing as (evolved) humans is wrong!
LOL! When people reply to Zeitgeist or Thrive movements they say pure scientific systems without education in other areas(including mental) is utopic viewpoint. Make up your minds maybe? Balance can and does exist - kinda like Yin & Yang symbol teaches.

Last edited by Arcane; 06-22-2014 at 03:05 PM. Reason: linkfix
 
Old 06-22-2014, 03:13 PM   #4945
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Literature is my Utopia. Here I am not disenfranchised. No barrier of the senses shuts me out from the sweet, gracious discourses of my book friends. They talk to me without embarrassment or awkwardness.
--Helen Keller

Yin & Yang, religious; you are blind and deaf on your path but can learn! Once again, BOOM!
P.s: 'everyone (e.g==Hulu:)E3-6, Rev.

Last edited by jamison20000e; 06-22-2014 at 08:42 PM.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 05:03 PM   #4946
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Funny you should say, "mystic." Most religions are mystic. The one that stands out as being "so totally Roman [Empire]" ... is Christianity, at least as practiced in the west. (The Coptic traditions, which split-off to the East when the Empire collapsed, are quite different indeed.)

The Christian traditions of the West are, first of all, very dogmatic, both in terms of expected behavior ("render unto the Emperor", etc.) and in terms of what specifically is to be believed. The positioning is quite clear: either you are "in" or you are "out."

Even Judaism, of which Christianity purports to have sprung, has a very strong mystical component. Eastern religions always have, as have some (but not all) native / third-party religions.
 
Old 06-22-2014, 08:30 PM   #4947
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Does anyone else think that the last zillion pages of this thread reads like a conversation between bots?
 
Old 06-23-2014, 04:39 AM   #4948
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Originally Posted by dugan View Post
Does anyone else think that the last zillion pages of this thread reads like a conversation between bots?
I think most threads above a certain size read like a conversation between bots, or worse- though LQ seems to be better than most. I've avoided adding to this one so far because I couldn't summon the will to catch up on all the previous posts - but it's an interesting topic nonetheless.
 
Old 06-23-2014, 08:33 AM   #4949
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
It seems like people(enorbet for example) are misunderstanding my posts recently for some reason(probably because of my not so great english due to time forget). Let's try with quotes then explain:

BUT if you will take out reason

same applies for science - give him incomplete information and he will waste time doing it wrong when it could be done properly.
OK I'll go along for a bit more. If you "take out reason" when you have "incomplete information" what will be your source for more complete information and what tools will you use to weight and test this new information to do it "properly"?
 
Old 06-23-2014, 08:49 AM   #4950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
Does anyone else think that the last zillion pages of this thread reads like a conversation between bots?
printf("So, computer programmers aren't great conversationalists.\nSo what?\n\n");

 
  


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