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Old 10-06-2011, 01:05 PM   #3541
kostya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
You were given a simple question:

And you have to answer it. Failure to answer will indicate that christianity is based on a lie (question is basic/simple, and christians had 2000 years to think about it). You have one more attempt. Currently you're running away from the question and trying to divert attention from the question. Be a man and answer the question.
Where did you get this information, that "God is testing people although he knows the answers in advance"?
Cause I don't feel obliged to answer obvious nonsense. I only answer for what the Bible says, so show me your question from the Bible and you'll have your answer, be assured.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 01:17 PM   #3542
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Originally Posted by kostya View Post
I'd say someone worked really hard to blind the eyes of you people so you could NOT see obvious and even publicly available things.
Flood (happened or not) would not prove your god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
You're kiddin' me or what?
Provide slavic myth about flood. You'll have to prove that it didn't originate from bible. Also, don't forget about african and japanese flood myths. Also your original statement was "EVERY ancient tradition". I see no reason to believe you, so to support your point you would need to provide flood myth for every ancient tradition or admit telling an incorrect information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Where did you get this information, that "God is testing people although he knows the answers in advance"?
Cause I don't feel obliged to answer obvious nonsense. I only answer for what the Bible says, so show me your question from the Bible and you'll have your answer, be assured.
God is omnipotent by definition, and knows everything by definition. God can predict future by definition and according to bible.
Quote:
Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (King James Version)
Here's discription of your god. The god is unchanging, which means it always had the ability.

And for the crap's sake you were talking about biblical prophecies for the half of the time you participated in this thread, so you can't take this back now. If prophecies originated from god, then god can predict the future. It is required by definition, bible, and you also believe in this.

So, deal with the question already, instead of hiding in technicalities and running away.
Quote:
why does the god test people if he knew result in advance even before he/she/it created universe?"
This problem is incompatible with allmighty omnipotent omniscient "just" being that "is love".

You have one attempt. Failure to answer will indicate to me that christianity is a lie (and if a god exists that it is not the one described in bible).

Last edited by SigTerm; 10-06-2011 at 02:10 PM.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 01:44 PM   #3543
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Isaac's life was spared by the death of Christ.
Question: How many years separated Abraham and Jesus? Seems odd that one could say that Isaac was spared by an event that occurred centuries in the future. Even more so when the whole point of Christianity is that Abraham operated under one covenant with God, and Jesus brought a NEW covenant.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 02:34 PM   #3544
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Originally Posted by kostya View Post
It is just amazing how you guys ALWAYS seem to thoroughly study only such factual evidence as seems to support your theory and turn blind eye on the rest of science.
Rather than setting up straw men, why don't you share some? Where's this science you speak of that indicates the existence of a god?
 
Old 10-06-2011, 02:55 PM   #3545
kostya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Provide slavic myth about flood.
I actually don't know that much about slavic myths at all.
Quote:
God is omnipotent by definition, and knows everything by definition. God can predict future by definition and according to bible.
Sure enough he CAN, but where in the Bible does it say that he uses such his ability to define the future of every human form beginning to end? That's, I guess, a rather old view called fatalism.
So...
WHat is written in Jeremiah chapter 1 applies personally to Jeremiah, as can be easily seen. The same thing is applied sometimes to some other particualr humans (Cyrus the Perse for example!)
Quote:
Jesus had the ability to predict future, if I remember correctly (praying in the garden).
Jesus KNEW the prophecies and knew much more about his Father's ways.
He could also see what others could not, yet notice how he "didn't know" about certain very important things to happen in the future (Luke 13:32).
Quote:
So, deal with the question already, instead of hiding in technicalities:"why does the god test people if he knew result in advance even before he/she/it created universe?" "
Although I showed that Jeremiah 1:6 doesn't say the above, I'm accepting your question and will give an answer.

WARNING: you're asking a complicated enough question, so have enough patience to follow the answer to the end.
And to start with, inthe Universe God created humans are given freedom of choice. They choose and he's not abusing his power by foretelling what it will be (Read Acts 14:16,17). He CAN know the future for everyone, but he's in control of his powers as you are of yours.
Then again, God of the Bible is NOT like the Big Brother: instead of spying on us he's putting faith in us. Due to his power and wisdom he can afford this without loosing control of the situation. This is also a given (read Genesis 3:15). His prophecies also say enough to give a warning, outline God's purpose yet leave enough freedom to humans.

Then more about testing itself:
Does the testing mean tempting? James 1:13 says God "tempteth not any man". So he doesn't "tempt" humans even when the Bible says he's "testing" them.

Next, Jeremiah 17:9,10 God can be "testing" people i order to reveal the real contents of their hearts. He's not making decisions basing on what people think of feel only, but also on how they act and how they react in certain situations.
That view is confirmed by Jesus (read Matthew 7:16-20).

For whom is this testing, then?
Is it for God who indeed is "telling from the start what's coming in the end"?
Sure it is for humans themselves first of all. When justice is being rendered, THEY must know it is all right, not GOd. So God can invoke situations (or just wait till such situation should happen) in which humans would clearly show by action or reaction what they are in this or that respect.

Then there are angels watching, who may not have God's or Jesus' ability to read in human hearts. To them it also shows the righteous judgement.

Yet human reaction in testing situations shows also what they really want to be, apart from what they are currently. Not what they say they want, but what they really want.
For example, a sinner in a testing situation can demonstrate strong resolution to resist sinful inclinations. He may also have sinful desires in his heart, but what will define his actions? The one or the other?
As you see in Ezekiel 18, God is interested that such one could change and keep living.
====================================================================================
So one of the reasons for testing is to reveal the real personal characteristics of humans both to themselves and to others; it can also be used to render justice to everyone according to his ways, so that the one in question could see for himself the just basis for that judgement. Ezekiel 18 above shows, that God's main motivation is to help people change, not to punish them for errors in the first place.

There are other reasons as well, do you want to study them, too? I'm warning in advance, one must be ready to study this in order to get deeper into it. You've asked a complicated enough question, so don't expect the answer to be like "2 +2 = ... OK it's obviously 4!!". It will take some advanced analysis.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 03:24 PM   #3546
bluegospel
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Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
What god did is like kicking his kids (that were not old enough to know about morality) out of his house for the very first mistake they made. Doesn't sound like a good father to me. But still not answering the question.
Adam was a mature adult, not a child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Once again: Adam and Eve didn't know about good and evil. They simply couldn't know that it is evil to not obey god. Se he punished them, because god didn't make them awarwe of that. Please explain that to me.
They didn't have to know about good and evil to do what was right. They knew that their creator had attested that they would die if they trespassed. Knowing full well what they were doing, they trespassed their creator's counsel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
God is the creator of all things, so he must have created pride in the first place. Also once again, how can anyone be tempted before even knowing about good and evil.
Temperate pride vs intemperate.

The kind of temptation that addressed them was to become more "sophisticated" than the way they were created. That's clearly pride. As far as your final question, even a child who's not yet learned "good and evil" can distinguish what they're permitted to do and not. Not knowing good from evil they can still be tempted to disobey their parents. It's the same scenario with Adam, yet furthermore, Adam was a mature adult.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 03:37 PM   #3547
bluegospel
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Doesn't matter. You're still avoiding the most important question:

Answer it. Failure to answer will indicate that christianity is based on a lie (question is basic/simple, and christians had 2000 years to think about it). You have one more attempt.
I'll answer this question--again, but not for your importunacy:

Quote:
"why does the god test people if he knew result in advance even before he/she/it created universe?"
Your question has 2 parts:

1) Why does God test people?
2) When he knows beforehand what they'll do?

1) He tests us as a smith would test metals, to prove & purify us. Aren't you in high spirits when you perform well in a test? Tests of God are to a much better effect in us than academic or tests for certifications.

2) It's not for his good, but for our own.

I have answered your question quite directly.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 03:44 PM   #3548
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Adam was a mature adult, not a child.
???
You were the one that called God a good father, because he punished his kids for doing something wrong. He punished them for the first mistake they ever made with kicking them out of the Garden of Even, I don't know in which world you live, but as far as I know this isn't the behavior of a good father.
And according to the bible, Adam was created as adult, but not mature, since he didn't know about good and evil, which I would think to be a prerequisite for being mature.

But anyways, since you still are avoiding the one question I (and others) asked you many posts before (you remember? Something like "Why have an all-knowing entity to test humans, although he knows the answers before?") I must conclude that you either can't or don't want to answer the question, without admitting it.

So any further discussion with you is fruitless, you failed to make your point and were not doing any good to Christianity in general.

Last edited by TobiSGD; 10-06-2011 at 03:46 PM.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 03:45 PM   #3549
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Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
Oh, I get it. Abraham testified about Christ through the agencies of anachronism and illiteracy. When Abraham says "God himself will provide the lamb," he's quite obviously LYING TO HIS SON, because in this case the "lamb" is Isaac himself. But then God stops Abraham from Isaac... and does Christ magically appear? No, but a ram does.

Obviously you did some spectacular mental gymnastics to arrive at the conclusion that this story has anything to do with Jesus, but you really fell hard on the landing.
No "mental gymnastics" here. Christ himself said, "Before Abraham was, I Am."
 
Old 10-06-2011, 03:46 PM   #3550
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
I actually don't know that much about slavic myths at all.
Then don't claim that every nation has flood myth if you can't support your own argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Sure enough he CAN, but where in the Bible does it say that he uses such his ability to define the future of every human form beginning to end?
Where in bible does it say that god DOESN'T use that ability? Where does it say that god can deactivate such ability? Where does it say that god never used that ability? Keep in mind, that you'll need to use ability just once to know future for entire humankind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
He could also see what others could not, yet notice how he "didn't know" about certain very important things to happen in the future (Luke 13:32).
Assuming that "father" has same limitation would imply "father" is not omnipotent which is incompatible with other definitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
And to start with, inthe Universe God created humans are given freedom of choice. They choose and he's not abusing his power by foretelling what it will be (Read Acts 14:16,17).
Misinterpretation of bible.
Quote:
In the past, he let all nations go their own way.

Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy."
Does not say anything about "not foretelling". Argument dismissed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Then again, God of the Bible is NOT like the Big Brother: instead of spying on us
Incompatible with omniscience. Incompatible with omnipresence. God knows everything by biblical definition. Misinterpretation of bible/pure fantasy. "God does not spy on us" would mean that god does not know everything which implies bible lies. Argument dismissed. God is unchanging by definition which implies that he cannot disable ability to know everything or predict the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
His prophecies also say enough to give a warning, outline God's purpose yet leave enough freedom to humans.
There's no reason for giving freedom for omniscient being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Then more about testing itself:
Does the testing mean tempting?
No. It means there's no reason to send prophet when god knows that prophet will die horribly (incompatible with "being of love"). It also means that there is no reason to test contents of human heart when it is possible to learn it on whim. Argument dismissed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Next, Jeremiah 17:9,10 God can be "testing" people i order to reveal the real contents of their hearts. He's not making decisions basing on what people think of feel only, but also on how they act and how they react in certain situations.
Inefficient approach for deity that can instantly know contents of human hearts if it wishes. Incompatible with being "just" omniscient being of "love". Implies that god is not omniscient, which would indicate bible lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Sure it is for humans themselves first of all. When justice is being rendered, THEY must know it is all right, not GOd. So God can invoke situations (or just wait till such situation should happen) in which humans would clearly show by action or reaction what they are in this or that respect.
Inefficient approach incompatible with just being of love. Incompatible with omniscience. Putting person to test indicates there is need for the test, which implies that god is not omniscient, which implies that bible lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Then there are angels watching, who may not have God's or Jesus' ability to read in human hearts. To them it also shows the righteous judgement.
"Angels watching" implies god does knot know everything, otherwise there would be no need for angels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Yet human reaction in testing situations shows also what they really want to be, apart from what they are currently. Not what they say they want, but what they really want.
Has nothing to do with the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
For example, a sinner in a testing situation can demonstrate strong resolution to resist sinful inclinations. He may also have sinful desires in his heart, but what will define his actions? The one or the other?
Implies god is unjust and have no problem with his creations being hurt. Incompatible with just being of love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
As you see in Ezekiel 18, God is interested that such one could change and keep living.
Implies that god is not omniscient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
So one of the reasons for testing is to reveal the real personal characteristics of humans both to themselves and to others;
Implies god is not omniscient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Ezekiel 18 above shows, that God's main motivation is to help people change, not to punish them for errors in the first place.
Incompatible with Adam/Eve myth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
You've asked a complicated enough question, so don't expect the answer to be like "2 +2 = ... OK it's obviously 4!!". It will take some advanced analysis.
“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough” - Albert Einstein.
Indicates that "correct" answer will be given using trickery and moving the goal posts. A word in a holy book is meant to be absolute. There should be no room for misinterpretation. The structure should be simple, elegant and logical. You cannot convince a computer programmer that something that is overly complicated, and is not logical can have divine origin. If you really knew bible AND bible had the answer, you would able to counter that question with one paragraph of undeniably logical text.

You have failed to address the question (although you tried), plus uncovered multiple self-contradictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Adam was a mature adult, not a child.
Adam did not have knowledge of good and evil, which is child's trait. Adam was a child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
They didn't have to know about good and evil to do what was right.
Nonsense. To know what is "right", you need knowledge of good and evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
1) He tests us as a smith would test metals, to prove & purify us. Aren't you in high spirits when you perform well in a test? Tests of God are to a much better effect in us than academic or tests for certifications.
Pointless waste of time when you have power to create perfect metal on a whim. Incompatible with omnipotence, omniscience, and just being of love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
2) It's not for his good, but for our own.
Incompatible with omniscience, omnipotence and being of love, since implies that god either didn't know his creation will be harmed in advance, or didn't care.

You have failed to address the question I asked.

Conclusion:
Both bluegospel and kostya failed to resolve the omnipotence question. Discussion with kostya uncovered multiple contradictions which are incompatible with "bible tells the truth" assumption. In short, kostya/bluegospel have disproved christianity using their combined effort. Based on their replies, I will conclude that most likely bible lies and christian god does not exist due to sheer number of logical errors in definition of christian god. Non-biblical god (non-benevolent) may or may not exist, so agnosticism still applies. I'll definitely use similar arguments against other christians/JWs in future, if there will be an opportunity.

Have a nice day. Discussion is over. If you want your religion to be taken seriously, fix "compile errors" first. You had plenty of time in this thread to provide decent argument.

Last edited by SigTerm; 10-06-2011 at 06:30 PM.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 03:48 PM   #3551
bluegospel
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Originally Posted by moxieman99 View Post
Question: How many years separated Abraham and Jesus? Seems odd that one could say that Isaac was spared by an event that occurred centuries in the future. Even more so when the whole point of Christianity is that Abraham operated under one covenant with God, and Jesus brought a NEW covenant.
He indeed brought a new covenant, essentially amending the first.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 03:59 PM   #3552
SL00b
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
No "mental gymnastics" here. Christ himself said, "Before Abraham was, I Am."
Nice backflip. Still not seeing any mention of Jesus in that story of Abraham, though.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 04:05 PM   #3553
SL00b
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Your question has 2 parts:

1) Why does God test people?
2) When he knows beforehand what they'll do?

1) He tests us as a smith would test metals, to prove & purify us. Aren't you in high spirits when you perform well in a test? Tests of God are to a much better effect in us than academic or tests for certifications.

2) It's not for his good, but for our own.

I have answered your question quite directly.
Testing metal does not make it purer. It simply validates the existing purity with which the maker has imbued it. If the metal is pure enough, it is subjected to further processing. If not, it's melted down to slag.

This is how your god views you?
 
Old 10-06-2011, 08:32 PM   #3554
bluegospel
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Testing metal does not make it purer. It simply validates the existing purity with which the maker has imbued it. If the metal is pure enough, it is subjected to further processing. If not, it's melted down to slag.
"Test" is sometimes used to refer to refinement, usually when talking about silver. That's the sense in which I'm using it. See the eleventh definition from the top here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/test

The point is, if we are strong, we are made stronger through our trials.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 11:08 PM   #3555
moxieman99
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
He tests us as a smith would test metals, to prove & purify us.
But he already knowswhether we have the mettle, and therefore knows the outcome of the tests.

Aren't you trying to say that God is trying to reveal us to ourselves? That we are children of faith and trust in God (which is where Adam and Eve failed, they didn't trust in God's dictates at face value and follow them, forget "knowledge of good and evil" and all that rot, the question being; "Did they have faith")? Then say so. If God wants us to prove ourselves worthy of Him to ourselves, then it sounds very much like God is a construct of us that we created to keep ourselves in line. Or, that He is being sadistic, given that failing the test is eternal damnation (70 mothers-in-law, and not a virgin in sight?) without telling us that it is a test FOR ourselves, and not OF ourselves?

Then we have the question of why God would be concerned with what we think anyway, ESPECIALLY of ourselves.
 
  


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