The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by bluegospel Life is a test. That test is a sublime opportunity to demonstrate to God how much we love him.

If a god is allmighty, then he/she/it KNEW in advance that they WILL eat apple. So the whole tree of knowledge business sounds like a cheap excuse to kick people out of eden. Please stop trying to avoid the problem with god's omnipotence/omniscience. There is absolutely no reason for a omnipotent/omniscient being to test anybody, since he/she/it knows results of test in advance.

If god exists, why did he make me an atheist?

(Not gonna search this entire thread to see if that's been asked yet. I'm also and asearchist, I guess.)

Originally Posted by bluegospel Life is a test. That test is a sublime opportunity to demonstrate to God how much we love him.

so you're saying that your whole life revolves around sucking up to some (most probably imaginary) creature? That's really sad - and I mean it. I'd rather spend my life
focusing on real creatures (ie. my family, friends and my cat)

Originally Posted by bluegospel Whatever the case, God made not only a plan of salvation but of redemption, and regeneration, which I for one have taken the pleasure to indulge in. I have a certain inner-peace and am completely satisfied living fully for God. How many people do you know who can say that they are that happy with their life?

Devoting your life to being a part of god's sadistic plan makes you happy? Interesting...
As for people who are happy with their lives - yes, I know quite a few. People who accept that this life is the only one we get. It lets them live it fully. How can spending your life anticipating something that might come after your death let you live a full life? It's a life in a waiting room.

There's also another category of genuinely happy people - those who are intoxicated/stoned or otherwise deluded. Their moments of happiness are short-term due to the nature of substances they take. Religion is a long-lasting 'happy' drug. There's a reason why someone called religion 'opiate for the masses.' It may make some people happy (no doubt about it) but the price you have to pay is a life-long delusion.

Just my blank cheque.

I think I see how this works now:

Atheists (to religious people): "You're just weak and can't accept reality so you have to delude yourselves into believing some fantasy nonsense written in a book from thousands of years ago that has undergone endless revision and alteration." (or similar)

Religious people (to atheists): "You're just arrogant and unwilling to accept $DEITY's love and caring because you're afraid of what you might have to do to earn it." (or similar)

This has nothing to do with "proving/disproving the existence of $DEITY", it has everything to do with attempting to make the other guy look pathetic/weak/stupid/arrogant/etc. while making themselves look courageous/strong/intelligent/humble/etc.

As for my opinion, I think you people already know it: you're born, you're perfectly programmed (by your genes, environment, etc.) to live an exact, precisely determined life down to the last detail, which by nature is pathetic and meaningless no matter how "happy" you might delude yourself into being, then you-[………………………………………]

Yeah, you get the idea. I'm not exactly a ball of sunshine here.

Originally Posted by MrCode As for my opinion, I think you people already know it: you're born,

Such thinking is easily fixed by doing things you don't normally do or don't do at all. However, it is your life, and if you want to spend it feeling miserable for no good reason, I'm not going to stop you. IMO, if you convinced yourself that everything is predetermined, then it is entirely your fault.

Originally Posted by MrCode As for my opinion, I think you people already know it: you're born, you're perfectly programmed (by your genes, environment, etc.) to live an exact, precisely determined life down to the last detail, which by nature is pathetic and meaningless no matter how "happy" you might delude yourself into being, then you-[………………………………………] Yeah, you get the idea. I'm not exactly a ball of sunshine here.

Atheists (to MrCode): Yes, we are programmed, but it's us who are programmers and because we're constantly in beta versions, you can always change your functionality. If you can't do it on your own, you should share your source code with somebody who'll help you modify it.

Religious folks (to MrCode): Yes, we are programmed and it's god who is the uber-programmer. You can still change your functionality as a program. You just need to pray to God's tech support department and they will guide you.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD You fully ignore what was said before in this thread. Please be so kind and answer the following questions: 1. Why have god to test people when he (as all-knowing god) should know the results before?

It's a test for our sake, not God's.

2. When god made the plan restore Adam and mankind (I think that you refer to the "Jesus saves" thing), why did he actually set up that plan 4000 years later (according to the young earth creationist time-scale), after the nearly complete extinction of mankind, several slaughters and destroying of several cities without the possibility of him forgiving those sins (remeber Jesus didn't live at that time), instead of doing it instantly, which should have saved many souls from external damnation in hell?

Actually, the plan was in effect before the creation, according to the Bible (which I refer to here because you're alluding to it)--Eph 1:4, 5 "Even before he made the world, God loved us . . . God decided in advance to adopt us . . . and it gave him great pleasure."

Salvation through Christ was accesible immediately. Every soul who sought relief by looking forward to the one of whom Abraham spoke, and before him Noah, and before him Enoch and before him Seth and before him Abel. They all testified to a coming Christ.

3. How can anyone be tempted without the knowledge of good and evil? How should Adam and Eve have known that it is not a good thing to disobey your god without knowing a thing about "not being good"? In my eyes this is a logical fallacy.

Adam willfully disobeyed God for pride's sake. At that moment he preferred this secret knowledge rather than reciprocating the good God gave him.

4. Why are you assuming that anyone who doesn't follow your religion can not be completely satisfied with his life?

I know that human life is replete with suffering. And I know the strength God gives me to rejoice even through hardship. And I know the many avenues people take to try to escape or forget their suffering whenever they can. And I know absolutely that Christ came so that we could have abundant life. And I know because I experience it, and have brothers and sisters in Christ who experience it.

Originally Posted by sycamorex How can spending your life anticipating something that might come after your death let you live a full life?

That's what you don't get. It's not a guessing game. I know it to be the truth.

How can you be happy speculating that the best you'll ever get is in these brief 80 or 90 years if your fortunate (not to mention how much worse it could get afterward, when on the flip side you can have peace on earth and eternal bliss after)?

Originally Posted by bluegospel It's a test for our sake, not God's.

(assuming christian god exists)
The test is for nobody's sake. God knew results of test in advance even before "let there be light". There was no reason to test when it was possible to adjust human design instead so many things wouldn't happen.

Please stop running away from the problem of omnipotence. Why would god put humans through test, if he knew results of test in advance?

Originally Posted by bluegospel That's what you don't get. It's not a guessing game. I know it to be the truth.

Correction: you THINK/BELIEVE it is truth.

Originally Posted by bluegospel How can you be happy speculating that the best you'll ever get is in these brief 80 or 90 years if your fortunate (not to mention how much worse it could get afterward, when on the flip side you can have peace on earth and eternal bliss after)?

If there's no afterlife, atheist agnostic has nothing to lose. If there is an afterlife, atheist/agnostic gets to live forever which is an unexpected bonus. Even if you end up in hell, then given infinite amount of time, you most likely will be able to adapt and enjoy it. However, there is no proof of existence of hell. Maybe (assuming there is an immortal soul) reincarnation is in effect instead.

Originally Posted by bluegospel Adam willfully disobeyed God for pride's sake.

(assuming christian god exists)
A god knew in advance with absolute certainty that adam will disobey. Also, while "pride" is (in christian) is an "evil"/"sin", however without knowledge about "evil", it is not possible to identify act of "pride". Adam/eve did not know what "pride" is. Conclusion: the tree has been planted to kick out humanity out of eden. Plus, if you compare god with "parents", human parents do not normally disown children for something like that. Conclusion: god dislikes/hates humanity.

Originally Posted by bluegospel And I know the strength God gives me to rejoice even through hardship.

Why would you need god for that is beyond me. The true strength (IMO) comes from understanding that you alone have the power to change your life to the better, and you don't need any help for that.

@SigTerm

I had seriously considered reviving the thread before with the whole "heaven/hell problem" (i.e. that eternal bliss would eventually become boring, and eternal suffering would eventually become…well, not suffering), and I was even gonna link to that exact SMBC!

Originally Posted by bluegospel It's a test for our sake, not God's.

Not answering the question.

Actually, the plan was in effect before the creation, according to the Bible (which I refer to here because you're alluding to it)--Eph 1:4, 5 "Even before he made the world, God loved us . . . God decided in advance to adopt us . . . and it gave him great pleasure." Salvation through Christ was accesible immediately. Every soul who sought relief by looking forward to the one of whom Abraham spoke, and before him Noah, and before him Enoch and before him Seth and before him Abel. They all testified to a coming Christ.

If salvation from Christ was available before Jesus lived on earth, why had god to sacrifice him nonetheless?

Adam willfully disobeyed God for pride's sake. At that moment he preferred this secret knowledge rather than reciprocating the good God gave him.

Completely ignoring the question. Even if Adam willfully disobeyed god he couldn't know better, because god designed him not to know about good and evil. Conclusion: God punished mankind for his own design flaw.

I know that human life is replete with suffering. And I know the strength God gives me to rejoice even through hardship. And I know the many avenues people take to try to escape or forget their suffering whenever they can. And I know absolutely that Christ came so that we could have abundant life. And I know because I experience it, and have brothers and sisters in Christ who experience it.

This sounds like: I use Linux and I like it, so you can't be happy with a different OS.

Originally Posted by bluegospel That's what you don't get. It's not a guessing game. I know it to be the truth.

Funny you should say it. It seems you don't get the nature of your faith/belief. I don't think even the pope would be so arrogant and short-sighted to claim that he knows it to be the truth. Confusing what you know with what you think/believe you know just MIGHT be a sign of delusion.
How can you know it to be the truth? Are you omniscient? If not, your claim is unsupported rubbish.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Unfortunately, the author of this verse is dead and cannot bet money/life on it any longer. Are you willing to take his place?

That one also lived to see the realization of quite a few prophecies of his time. So he had good reasons to believe those revealed to him, it seems.

I would prefer if failed doomsday prophecy were a crime that resulted in imprisonment.

Hah, you're not the first one to prefer such a thing. The prophet Jeremiah WAS imprisoned and murder attempts were made as well. And by whom was he released? By them who captured Jerusalem in realization of his extremely unpopular prophecy.

Noah flood never happened. Aside from bible nobody tells anything about it, so it is a myth. Interestingly, bible doesn't mention Ice Age that did happen.

1) Every ancient tradition mentions global flood in some more or less perverted version. There usually appears a man saved alive through such flood, who then became father to humankind we see today. Have you never heard of such traditions?
2) The Bible says about a new commandment given to Noah after exiting the Ark: a command to eat meat from then on. This indicates that climate became more hostile, than it used to be before the flood.

Originally Posted by MrCode ... you're perfectly programmed (by your genes, environment, etc.) to live an exact, precisely determined life down to the last detail...

Yea... and mr. Dawkins didn't throw a single ray of light on HOW and by WHOM this all programming took place. Just who was the programmer?

Cause the Second Law of Thermodynamics implies such thing DOESN'T happen by "natural/unattended flow of events". Notice I didn't even say CAN'T, for that law has it quite certainly. It DOESN'T HAPPEN. PERIOD.
There are half-abstract calculations of the probabilities made... but that apart from this law, which just states the fact: this does not happen, the opposite happens instead.

Originally Posted by kostya Yea... and mr. Dawkins didn't throw a single ray of light on HOW and by WHOM this all programming took place. Just who was the programmer?

Natural selection is the programmer. Or whatever selecting process occurs, sexual selection, etc.

Cause the Second Law of Thermodynamics implies such thing DOESN'T happen by "natural/unattended flow of events". Notice I didn't even say CAN'T, for that law has it quite certainly. It DOESN'T HAPPEN. PERIOD. There are half-abstract calculations of the probabilities made... but that apart from this law, which just states the fact: this does not happen, the opposite happens instead.

What I find so sad about creationism is that you all use the same arguments, and inevitably these arguments have been utterly demolished by anyone with half a brain, often decades ago. But I have no doubt you all will continue to spout them in feigned ignorance of how truly bad these arguments are. Sigh, the intellectual bankruptcy of religion.

The 2nd law refers to the total entropy of a closed system. The Earth is not a closed system, we have energy from the sun coming in.

As for your probability argument, it's a bit like trying to calculate the odds that Linus Torvalds life path would lead to the creation of linux. If you look at every possible thing that could have happened, it's astronomical, improbable to the point of absurdity. As is any particular event that happens out of the myriad of possible futures. But while any individual event is extremely improbable, some event must happen. Any particular individual winning the lottery is very improbable, but someone winning the lottery is highly probable. And, since we only have a dataset of 1, calculating the probabilities is impossible anyway.

Originally Posted by bluegospel That's what you don't get. It's not a guessing game. I know it to be the truth. How can you be happy speculating that the best you'll ever get is in these brief 80 or 90 years if your fortunate (not to mention how much worse it could get afterward, when on the flip side you can have peace on earth and eternal bliss after)?

The wonderful thing about the truly religious is that I don't need to spend a lot of energy explaining to other people why religion is dangerous and why the separation of church and state is important. You all make the argument for me. The belief in the infallibility of one's own knowledge is just about the worst thing out there. I'd wager just about every human made tragedy out there can be traced to people's absolute certainty in the rightness or truth of their beliefs. It is at heart why I think religion to be fundamentally immoral.

1. It's not about what makes you happy, it's about what's true.
2. If you're only good in anticipation of reward or fear of punishment, it's not very good now is it? Be good for goodness' sake, not God's.