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Old 09-30-2011, 10:09 AM   #3466
ShaanAli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
No, we are saying if God exists, neither you nor anyone else is in a position to know what he thinks or knows. There is no way to distinguish a genuine holy book, if there was such a thing, from a fake. There is no way to distinguish a genuine prophet, if there was such a thing, from a fake. If there was, we would not have the diversity of religions or religious sects within a particular religion. Are the Catholics right? Are the Protestants? Are the Eastern Orthodox folks? Are the Jehovah's Witnesses? Are the Sunnis right? Are the Shiites? Everyone's running around proclaiming that they and they alone know the truth about God and you're all full of it.
Well you brought a very good point here. Why do we have branches in religion.

I agree they exists. But brother you need to see why do they exist? What is the origin of their existence? Definitely in holy books there is no room for such branches. Did anywhere in Bible written so? People with different opinions form a group and start following in their way. Slowly it becomes practice and gets translated into new branch of religion. Protestants protested some of teachings of Catholics and formed new branch. They have their own churches now. I dont know much what they were protesting and if they were right or not. I think this could be because of Bible was not in original form as it supposed to be. Bible might have changed several times before protestants formed. even later Catholics, Protestants they all went through changes. Well this is not the case with Islam. Quran is still intact and why Shiite exists because they were in favor of some other caliph (leader) after Mohammed (PBUH) death. As per basics of Islam any muslim need to follow teachings of Mohammed and Quran. But unfortunately now lots of shiites practices are different. They go against Quran and Prophet. So existence of shiites is not fault of holy book, nor prophet. Every human being has its own will, they can do whatever they want. As per branch I fall as Sunni and I am noticing lots of Sunnis are practicing which is against Islam teachings. That is not correct. Well calling myself Sunni is against Islam. Branching of religion is forbidden clearly in holy book Quran.

I believe in no Bible there is not a single unambiguous statement wherein Jesus (pbuh) himself said, I am God, worship me. There is no single unambiguous statement in any of version of bible. But still all Christians pray Jesus (pbuh).



Your another question was how to identify holy book is really a genuine holy book, not a fake.

As per Quran is concern, there is no claim so far that this has been changed since it was revealed. As per my knowledge still 1500 years old original scriptures are secured in Egypt and Lebanon library and some time back there was extensive research done by some European university wherein they collected several thousands copy of Quran from different corner of world and surprise to them they didnt found any difference in them. In Quran, Allah promised to keep this book intact till last day and so far this is true. Millions of people remember Quran word by word. Even if all the Quran copies are burnt, it will take no time to produce Quran copy.

So far there is no single verse of Quran which could be proved wrong by science. In fact in Quran there are so many things written which are getting proven now. I found one good document here is the link . You may go through that.

If Quran was written by Mohammed (pbuh) not God, Mohammed (pbuh) would not have mentioned anything about Jesus (pbuh) and would have certainly taken all the credit to him and could have become God and asked all his followers to pray him not God.
This is what happening with all new Living Gods. They say they are God and ask their poor followers to pray them. While they are just human beings like us. Osho Rajneesh, Satya sai baba etc...

Its very simple to say, no one 1500 years before could write such a book like Quran. Author of this book can not be human being. So if not human being, who else? This clearly implies there is a super power who wrote that book and send to us through His chosen prophet. Still having doubt, read Quran http://quran.com. You will come to know.




Quote:
The point was not whether we would know. The point was that if God exists he would know, so what's the point of him testing us if he knows who we are and how we would react? Why take Abraham up on the mountain and command him to sacrifice his son if he already knew Abraham would do it? (And yet another example of why God is not good there.)
I think I replied this already. Please read my previous quotes again.



Quote:
Why should everyone have to die? God could have just as easily made us immortal. Did it with the angels, right? According to the Bible people used to live for centuries, right? Why this particular life span now? Why have people die in accidents or natural disasters at all? Why create a world with earthquakes and tornadoes if he could have just as easily done otherwise? Why these natural disasters and not other sorts? Why not just say, "everyone gets 100 years, do what you will with that and I'll judge you at the end"?

Once again, there are no answers in religion. It doesn't help us understand why things are the way they are.

More useless tests. Again you prove that God, as you and most people conceive of him, is not good.
As I said earlier, everyone has to die one day and Reason can be various. Accidents, Natural disasters, earthquakes, tornadoes they are just excuses to blame same like heart attack, bird flu, old age, plane crash or any other reason. If everyone would be dying with same reason and same age, there would be no thrill in life. It would be bore.

If we all are immortal, this earth would not be a place to live. Just imagine if I know i am not going to die what damages I could have done to society. I saw a movie some time back of Bruce Willis, he and his wife had become immortal. How horrible it was. They were killing each other and were not dieing... Watch that to know what would be the life in that case. "Death Becomes Her". Someone said correctly, if there would be no death human race would have become Shatan.
 
Old 09-30-2011, 10:45 AM   #3467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
As per Quran is concern, there is no claim so far that this has been changed since it was revealed.

So far there is no single verse of Quran which could be proved wrong by science.
This has been discussed one hungred times already in this thread.
Even if nothing has been changed, even if nothing has been disproven (I really doubt that), that does not prove divine origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Its very simple to say, no one 1500 years before could write such a book like Quran. Author of this book can not be human being.
This is a theory with a VERY shaky foundation that is ready to collapse - i.e. something you believe in but something that is not a fact. You have to prove that theory.
Size of earth has been calculated in ancient greece (BC), ancient philosophers has predicted existence of atoms (BC). Sumerians has mathematics 3000 years BC. This is older than bible and quran. So, most likely scenario is that ancient people were not as dumb as you think and quran was written by human.
In my opinion, you greatly underestimate humans and ancient people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
I think I replied this already. Please read my previous quotes again.
You haven't answered. The question was "why does the god test people if he knew result in advance even before he/she/it created universe?". Your answer was "the god has to test people". Doesn't make any sense, which means you're avoiding the question on purpose or do not understand it. If you know results in advance, there's no reason to even create people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
As I said earlier, everyone has to die one day and Reason can be various. Accidents, Natural disasters, earthquakes, tornadoes they are just excuses to blame same like heart attack, bird flu, old age, plane crash or any other reason. If everyone would be dying with same reason and same age, there would be no thrill in life. It would be bore.
Again, not an answer. You were asked "why everybody has to die?". And you answered "People die from accidents, because if everybody died at same age, it would be boring". Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
If we all are immortal, this earth would not be a place to live. Just imagine if I know i am not going to die what damages I could have done to society.
Do not confuse immortality, invulnerability and eternal youth. Invulnerable can die from old age. Immortal can be destroyed. I see no good reason for aging. It is reasonable to grant immortality and leave the choice (die or not) to a person. However, people are not given such choice. Why? Besides, god had the power to create a world able to sustain immortal race. As for your question "Just imagine if I know i am not going to die what damages I could have done to society." - an easiest solution would be to drop you into active volcano or launch you into space as a punishment. Even if you can't die, it'll take a lot of time for you to get back from there, if you'll ever be able to do it. Sounds like a perfect crime deterrent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
They were killing each other and were not dieing...
"dying"
As for the movie you mentioned, I'm pretty sure that characters in question could be disintegrated or burned to ash.

Last edited by SigTerm; 09-30-2011 at 10:53 AM.
 
Old 09-30-2011, 11:11 AM   #3468
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Definitely in holy books there is no room for such branches. Did anywhere in Bible written so? People with different opinions form a group and start following in their way. Slowly it becomes practice and gets translated into new branch of religion. Protestants protested some of teachings of Catholics and formed new branch. They have their own churches now. I dont know much what they were protesting and if they were right or not. I think this could be because of Bible was not in original form as it supposed to be. Bible might have changed several times before protestants formed. even later Catholics, Protestants they all went through changes. Well this is not the case with Islam.
Well, I was with you right up until the "not the case with Islam". Of course it is the case with Islam as well.

Quote:
Quran is still intact and why Shiite exists because they were in favor of some other caliph (leader) after Mohammed (PBUH) death. As per basics of Islam any muslim need to follow teachings of Mohammed and Quran. But unfortunately now lots of shiites practices are different. They go against Quran and Prophet. So existence of shiites is not fault of holy book, nor prophet. Every human being has its own will, they can do whatever they want. As per branch I fall as Sunni and I am noticing lots of Sunnis are practicing which is against Islam teachings. That is not correct. Well calling myself Sunni is against Islam. Branching of religion is forbidden clearly in holy book Quran.
The Sunni/Shiite split happened in 632!!! As in, immediately after Muhammad's death. It was a succession battle, the Shia wanted power to stay with Muhammad's family and the Sunni thought the community should elect the best qualified religious leader. And you claim to have the one true and unambiguous answer to this split? Hmm.

Quote:
So far there is no single verse of Quran which could be proved wrong by science. In fact in Quran there are so many things written which are getting proven now. I found one good document here is the link . You may go through that.
And here we get to the most improbable claim of all. If I had a nickel for the number of times Christians have made the same outrageous claim to me, I'd be a rich man indeed.

Just to pull a quote from your link
Quote:
“There is not an animal (That lives) on the earth, Nor a being that flies
On its wings, but (forms Part of) communities like you.” [Al-Qur’aan
6:38]

Research has shown that animals and birds live in communities, i.e. they
organize, and live and work together.
You really honestly think this is an unambiguous scientific statement? It's wrong, you know. There are plenty of creatures that do not live in communities.

Pretty much everything in there is wrong to some extent on the science and massively wrong in trying to interpret the Quran as supporting his limited understanding of the science.

The biggest problem is of course that it's all post hoc explanation. You're just retrofitting literature to facts as they become known and given, as I have repeatedly said, that all religious texts are ambiguous, it's easy to do. I could take any piece of religious writing, hell pretty much any piece of literature, and do the same. Shall we worship Star Trek because they presaged cell phones? Must have been God talking through them? Show me anywhere were someone was actually able to give useful scientific information in advance based on a religious texts, something that actually led to new discoveries or technology. Show me an elegant proof of Fermat's Last Theorem in the Quran or any religious text, that would raise real questions.

Quote:
If Quran was written by Mohammed (pbuh) not God, Mohammed (pbuh) would not have mentioned anything about Jesus (pbuh) and would have certainly taken all the credit to him and could have become God and asked all his followers to pray him not God.
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Rationalizing that Mohammed would only write this if he was truly inspired by God is not an argument. I could say the same about the Bible or the Book of Mormon. There's nothing in there that couldn't have been known at the time. All I need to do is show that it is possible Mohammed could have written the Quran without Divine help to discredit any argument for God. So long as there is a plausible natural explanation, you cannot use it as an inexorable argument to believe.

Quote:
Its very simple to say, no one 1500 years before could write such a book like Quran. Author of this book can not be human being. So if not human being, who else? This clearly implies there is a super power who wrote that book and send to us through His chosen prophet. Still having doubt, read Quran http://quran.com. You will come to know.
I've read quite a bit of the Quran by now and it's every bit as nonsensical as the Bible. Your assertion that no human being in the 7th century could have written it is baseless.
 
Old 09-30-2011, 03:28 PM   #3469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
{...}To answer you in simple words, we are here for test how do we live our life. How do we behave to our brothers, elders, other creators etc....Do we obey the rules of Almighty God. etc etc....{...}
Test? If you look around you will see that test is pretty much torture and unfair test because some people will have no choice on how to make their lives - some will be killed, some will be born damaged, some will be unhappy because they can't fulfill their dream in position where they are placed etc. Looks like torture and false prophet message to me..look if you claim you know God and Gods plan you have to be 100% able to answer any question thrown at you without making even 1 mistake in answer. Can you do it? Btw why do people kill people in name of Allah if Allah is so fair and nice and innocent?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
{...}If there is a god like the one you describe, humans eventually will have to destroy it.
Problem is we don't know what God is, if we can or should touch God and if killing would solve our problems..for example maybe God is required when new life is created in that case we would kill ourselves too. Also God who has more knowledge about world is actually valuable to keep alive to help us even if we could touch God in bad way for God..
P.S.The more this discussion goes on the more it prooves that when discussing God people should be neutral to erase BIAS problem in end result.

Last edited by Arcane; 09-30-2011 at 03:40 PM.
 
Old 09-30-2011, 03:55 PM   #3470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Problem is we don't know what God is, if we can or should touch God and if killing would solve our problems..for example maybe....
There is an infinite number of theories about god. Thinking/talking about them is pointless, unless you can support them with something.
 
Old 09-30-2011, 04:10 PM   #3471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
God knows everything. It means God knows past, present and future of each and everything. I think we need to move on from here. Dont come back again and again saying God doesn't know future or his own decision.{...}
Sorry this doesn't make sense..if we have free will God shouldn't know our decision otherwise God shouldn't punish and test us in first place because test has no value - we wont change nothing if we have no option to choose outcome other than that that is stated in God's plan.

Quote:
{...}With this you have question, why then test is for if God knows result and reward is hell or heaven.{...}
What is the point of Hell and Heaven anyway and can you proove they exist and exist in way that will help us?
Quote:
{...}Test is for us so that no one of us would be in a position to object God decision.{...}
Oh cool..sounds like forced and set-up experience so that God could cover up fact that he has screwed up his master plan of delivering correct stuff directly without making stupid tests which humans can't really change much..
Quote:
{...}I know its very heartening when any innocent person or kids died. But we should understand their test is over and same time its a new test for their relatives. It will be a test of mother who lost his kid if she still continue believing in God and His decision. It will be a test of rich man who lost all his wealth in disaster. Any kid/infant who lost his life in childhood, will surely be in paradise. Because he would not have committed any sin by that time.{...}
Something is wrong in test then if it involves innocent people suffering..even we humans with limited understanding can see that test like this is full of flaws.
Quote:
{...}God has promised to provide us better life in heaven if we pass this test. God has full right to take life back anytime. Its Him only who gave this life.
What if we don't want heaven and deserve not be sent to hell? I don't see anything much terrible wrong living on Earth just it needs really good amount of fixing stuff so that we can live on it without worries but still not loosing interest in living further. Actually if you think about it by now many people can make proper list about what should God change to make life on Earth way much better that it is already and then there is no need for external Hell or Heaven and Earth will be nice place to live. Is this idea wrong and God won't consider this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
There is an infinite number of theories about god. Thinking/talking about them is pointless, unless you can support them with something.
Trust me i know and that is what makes things way too complicated and makes people who seek truth rage. Well there are way too many theories that we have soul and that soul is given or shared by God when we are created as child in mother..here is one link if you require "something".

Last edited by Arcane; 09-30-2011 at 04:31 PM. Reason: added text
 
Old 09-30-2011, 04:38 PM   #3472
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Trust me i know and that is what makes things way too complicated and makes people who seek truth rage. Well there are way too many theories that we have soul and that soul is given or shared by God when we are created as child in mother..here is one link if you require "something".

You're confusing something with nothing by that link.
 
Old 09-30-2011, 04:46 PM   #3473
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Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
You're confusing something with nothing by that link.
Then don't ask for proof if you know when it comes to God noone can deliver it yet..it is theory said by even Bible that God gives soul to each person when they are been born and if we destroy God no more future souls.
 
Old 09-30-2011, 04:59 PM   #3474
reed9
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Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Then don't ask for proof if you know when it comes to God noone can deliver it yet..it is theory said by even Bible that God gives soul to each person when they are been born and if we destroy God no more future souls.
If religious folks didn't make truth claims, I wouldn't ask for proof. If you tell me something is true, then show me the evidence. If no one can deliver proof of God, well, what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
 
Old 09-30-2011, 09:52 PM   #3475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
here is one link if you require "something".
Bible has uncertain origin, and most likely is a fiction written by humans.
There were already plenty of citations provided by certain people in this thread, so please don't waste time providing yet another one. Unless you can prove divine origin of bible, citations mean nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Then don't ask for proof if you know when it comes to God noone can deliver it yet..it is theory said by even Bible that God gives soul to each person when they are been born and if we destroy God no more future souls.
So, if we can recycle souls (reincarnation, anyone?), then destroying the god will prevent overpopulation of the planet. Just saying. Of course, long before that somebody will have to prove that there is a god, there are souls, and that without god there can be no souls.
 
Old 10-01-2011, 09:18 PM   #3476
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Firm believer, Catholic. Open source development/philosophy is very compatible with Catholic social doctrine.
 
Old 10-02-2011, 04:43 AM   #3477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couf View Post
Firm believer, Catholic. Open source development/philosophy is very compatible with Catholic social doctrine.
One of the main aspects of open source philosophy is sharing. Looking at the wealth of Vatican and luxurious churches all over the world, I'd be inclined to think that sharing is not their best suit. Just my 5 pence.
 
Old 10-02-2011, 08:18 AM   #3478
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One of the main aspects of open source philosophy is sharing. Looking at the wealth of Vatican and luxurious churches all over the world, I'd be inclined to think that sharing is not their best suit. Just my 5 pence.
Don't forget about being open. The Vatican is far from open, let alone when it comes to the whole sexual misconduct of their priests. That was attempted to be swept under the rug, and still to this day the Vatican tries to remain rather mum about the whole thing. Also they try to buy the silence of victims to prevent them from speaking out or to have the matter investigated further!

Also they are quite behind the times, unlike open source which jumps on anything new. The Vatican doesn't; their priests still cannot marry because of some dumb celibacy oath that someone made up a few centuries back, and their stance on birth control primarily the use of condoms.

I still rather *love* the Vatican's position on the use of contraceptives, let alone in areas of the world that there are high numbers of HIV cases. NO CONDOMS! Even though their use could dramatically reduce the risk (I said reduce the risk, NOT prevent the spread - but hey its better than nothing), but again what was the current Pope's answer still? No condoms, even though it would clearly reduce risk of spreading HIV to others. Good job there! Reminds me of that skit from Monty Python's Meaning of Life - Every Sperm is Sacred. Look it up on youtube, or search for it since I have already posted a link many posts back and won't do that again.

Hell even the Orthodox Church is far beyond the Vatican, our priests can marry and the use of contraceptives is none of the church's business, because they don't get involved in such matters mostly. oh well.

Anyways now I digress, and that is also my own two hay-pennies.

Last edited by Jeebizz; 10-02-2011 at 08:23 AM.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 06:04 AM   #3479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
I agree they exists. But brother you need to see why do they exist? What is the origin of their existence? Definitely in holy books there is no room for such branches. Did anywhere in Bible written so? People with different opinions form a group and start following in their way. Slowly it becomes practice and gets translated into new branch of religion. Protestants protested some of teachings of Catholics and formed new branch. They have their own churches now. I dont know much what they were protesting and if they were right or not. I think this could be because of Bible was not in original form as it supposed to be. Bible might have changed several times before protestants formed. even later Catholics, Protestants they all went through changes. Well this is not the case with Islam.
Cheap advice- if you dont know about something, dont talk about it.

It would have been about 1 minute of work to find some decent information on the protestant/catholic devide, and maybe 10-20 minutes worth of reading to get a good basis in what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Quran is still intact

As per Quran is concern, there is no claim so far that this has been changed since it was revealed.
You've got to be kidding.

Quote:
Other tangible evidence for the Qur’an’s mutability exists. Cook discusses the existence of quranic quotations on early Muslim coins that differ from the present Qur’an,

"Equally, when the first Koranic quotations appear on coins and inscriptions towards the end of the seventh century, they show divergences from the canonical text. These appear trivial from the point of view of content, but the fact that they appear in such formal contexts as these goes badly with the notion that the text had already been frozen." 12

Essentially, he is saying that the appearance of divergent readings on what are really official, state-sponsored documents, indicates that the quranic text was still in a state of flux, even well into the Umayyad dynasty (661-750 AD). This lack of uniformity likewise implies to scholars that the Qur’an was not invested with the same air of authority that Muslims in our day give to it. As we will see, there is not any really solid evidence that the Qur'an existed in its final, edited form for over a century or more after the rise of the Arab Empire.
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv12.html

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

Stop listening to imans, and do some of your own research.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 07:24 AM   #3480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
One of the main aspects of open source philosophy is sharing. Looking at the wealth of Vatican and luxurious churches all over the world, I'd be inclined to think that sharing is not their best suit. Just my 5 pence.
Neither do I see in them any willingness to fix their "critical bugs".
 
  


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