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Old 09-26-2011, 02:45 AM   #3436
swgeek
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A short continuance -
Pompeii suffered the same fate as Sodom and Gommorah. Now there was such sexual immorality there that those "ancient paragons of virtue", the Romans, basically said "For a good time, take a trip to Pompeii, and made jokes about how low they were". Is there any scripture, writing, or anything else that says "And Pompeii was overthrown by the Lord, and buried in brimstone and ash" uh, no, but there is graphic evidence as it has been excavated that they were grossly immoral, probably as careless in life as some of the other things said of our friends in Sodom and Gommorah (riotous living, and no concern for the poor), and lo and behold they suffered the same fate. (Well, I don't need to worry, no volcanoes near me! - one rose out of a corn field in Mexico last century, and there are plenty of nukes out there, eh?).
A man of science, Einstein, stated that insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Look through history. To a fault, every society that let itself slip into the cesspool of gross immorality (uh, we seem to be there, or close), ended in the cesspool of history. Every society that did what is (unequivocally held to be good, recommended even by atheists such as Richard Dawkins) - care for the poor, the elderly, those unable to care for themselves, been kind and equitable with its fellow man has prospered. Here we are arguing about whether God exists. Well if He does not, and we are but the spawn of bacteria, and eventually the spurt of our father's loins, and nothing but, then this consistent eventual destruction of evil (which the bible says God eventually tires of and judges), is an anomaly of cosmic proportions that must be investigated.
The first and most obvious action is to repent (turn from evil) and seek to see if the hypothesis that there is no God is false by seeking Him wholeheartedly. In other words its the logical thing to do. When Jonah went (reluctantly) to Nineveh, all he said was "Repent, for in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown." He did not go into deep doctrinal detail. From the King (who heard of it, obviously) down to the lowest beggar, Nineveh repented - in sack cloth and ashes and was saved. Now even if this is an allegorical morality play / fairy tale, (and I don't think that it is), it dovetails neatly into known history - sin (especially gross sin) gets you destroyed, and righteousness delivers a nation, and so it happens, the Bible says exactly that in Proverbs.
So, perhaps that's what is needed (to repent and see if God is there by seeking him in action and heart). If it is wise to repent and do good so as to not be destroyed (read the news, the rebellious, raunchy sometimes live to a ripe old age, but more often those who insist on doing it the low down hard way, um die - a lot of the time. Yeah, there are the Rolling Stones - doin it hard and so old that they are fossils themselves, and then there is the multitude of others from Joplin, Hendrix, to Winehouse (I was deeply saddened at her death, as it wasn't us "bible thumpers", but her contemporaries who said "Ya gotta turn around sweetie" and there was no turning)) then why not subject yourself to God who is and be saved? You say show us some evidence. Look at history - The Thousand Year Reich? um, no, 11 or 12 years, and then judgement that was so deep it stung hard. Three years after Germany was reduced to ruins, the people it vowed to destroy had their own country after two thousand years. Maybe God said (metaphorically speaking to Hitler et al) "Oh, so a Thousand Years, eh, lets see what I have to say about that."
But we're not as bad as Nazi Germany!!! - Oh, really. Since 1973 we have aborted something like 50 million babies. I am going to put this in crude everyday english, according to my bible, if you really want to piss God off, shed innocent blood. You say, ok, maybe we have had a few recessions recently, but where is this almighty God of Judgment. (like Bruce in "Bruce Almighty, "if you're there STRIKE ME DOWN NOW"). I hope and pray that this country never learns the meaning of what God can do "In One day" - oh, wait, we smelt that cookin, even if we haven't eaten the whole dish, I think it was called 9/11 (and yes I grieve for the families and even yet in it God showed mercy in that it wasn't a half hour or an hour later when tens of thousands would have been in the towers). I've gotten on a bit of a high horse here, and I really don't mean to do it that hard, what I am saying is, if you want to hear about this, go ask the 2000 year old crispy critters that they found in the shallow caves by the seashore at Pompeii, if God can judge a (national, or area wide) evil life style. And if you want to here how good and joyous it is to serve in the presence of the Almighty go ask one of our modern ones who LIVES day by day on Gods Grace. You can find her website by googling Joni and friends. Later,
Seek God and live;
The SWGeek

---------- Post added 09-26-11 at 12:45 AM ----------

A short continuance -
Pompeii suffered the same fate as Sodom and Gommorah. Now there was such sexual immorality there that those "ancient paragons of virtue", the Romans, basically said "For a good time, take a trip to Pompeii, and made jokes about how low they were". Is there any scripture, writing, or anything else that says "And Pompeii was overthrown by the Lord, and buried in brimstone and ash" uh, no, but there is graphic evidence as it has been excavated that they were grossly immoral, probably as careless in life as some of the other things said of our friends in Sodom and Gommorah (riotous living, and no concern for the poor), and lo and behold they suffered the same fate. (Well, I don't need to worry, no volcanoes near me! - one rose out of a corn field in Mexico last century, and there are plenty of nukes out there, eh?).
A man of science, Einstein, stated that insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Look through history. To a fault, every society that let itself slip into the cesspool of gross immorality (uh, we seem to be there, or close), ended in the cesspool of history. Every society that did what is (unequivocally held to be good, recommended even by atheists such as Richard Dawkins) - care for the poor, the elderly, those unable to care for themselves, been kind and equitable with its fellow man has prospered. Here we are arguing about whether God exists. Well if He does not, and we are but the spawn of bacteria, and eventually the spurt of our father's loins, and nothing but, then this consistent eventual destruction of evil (which the bible says God eventually tires of and judges), is an anomaly of cosmic proportions that must be investigated.
The first and most obvious action is to repent (turn from evil) and seek to see if the hypothesis that there is no God is false by seeking Him wholeheartedly. In other words its the logical thing to do. When Jonah went (reluctantly) to Nineveh, all he said was "Repent, for in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown." He did not go into deep doctrinal detail. From the King (who heard of it, obviously) down to the lowest beggar, Nineveh repented - in sack cloth and ashes and was saved. Now even if this is an allegorical morality play / fairy tale, (and I don't think that it is), it dovetails neatly into known history - sin (especially gross sin) gets you destroyed, and righteousness delivers a nation, and so it happens, the Bible says exactly that in Proverbs.
So, perhaps that's what is needed (to repent and see if God is there by seeking him in action and heart). If it is wise to repent and do good so as to not be destroyed (read the news, the rebellious, raunchy sometimes live to a ripe old age, but more often those who insist on doing it the low down hard way, um die - a lot of the time. Yeah, there are the Rolling Stones - doin it hard and so old that they are fossils themselves, and then there is the multitude of others from Joplin, Hendrix, to Winehouse (I was deeply saddened at her death, as it wasn't us "bible thumpers", but her contemporaries who said "Ya gotta turn around sweetie" and there was no turning)) then why not subject yourself to God who is and be saved? You say show us some evidence. Look at history - The Thousand Year Reich? um, no, 11 or 12 years, and then judgement that was so deep it stung hard. Three years after Germany was reduced to ruins, the people it vowed to destroy had their own country after two thousand years. Maybe God said (metaphorically speaking to Hitler et al) "Oh, so a Thousand Years, eh, lets see what I have to say about that."
But we're not as bad as Nazi Germany!!! - Oh, really. Since 1973 we have aborted something like 50 million babies. I am going to put this in crude everyday english, according to my bible, if you really want to piss God off, shed innocent blood. You say, ok, maybe we have had a few recessions recently, but where is this almighty God of Judgment. (like Bruce in "Bruce Almighty, "if you're there STRIKE ME DOWN NOW"). I hope and pray that this country never learns the meaning of what God can do "In One day" - oh, wait, we smelt that cookin, even if we haven't eaten the whole dish, I think it was called 9/11 (and yes I grieve for the families and even yet in it God showed mercy in that it wasn't a half hour or an hour later when tens of thousands would have been in the towers). I've gotten on a bit of a high horse here, and I really don't mean to do it that hard, what I am saying is, if you want to hear about this, go ask the 2000 year old crispy critters that they found in the shallow caves by the seashore at Pompeii, if God can judge a (national, or area wide) evil life style. And if you want to here how good and joyous it is to serve in the presence of the Almighty go ask one of our modern ones who LIVES day by day on Gods Grace. You can find her website by googling Joni and friends. Later,
Seek God and live;
The SWGeek
 
Old 09-26-2011, 02:52 AM   #3437
swgeek
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Now more than enough said on my part. I am now going to sleep.
The SWGeek
 
Old 09-26-2011, 05:47 AM   #3438
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Would you argue also that art has to be perfect in order to be profound? The whole Christian position is that God is perfect, not the creation; and yet the creation is majestic, and I would add, artistic.
In my opinion, the world is not "art". If the god is omnipotent, his creation must be perfect. If the creation is not perfect, then either there is no god, or it is not omnipotent, or it is evil, since many imperfection cause suffering. On other hand, the world is not magnificient enough to be called god's art. I do not see anything "divine" about the wolrd around me, so I'd advise to forget about "artistic" argument - it is plain ridiculous (you must be getting desperate to resort to something like that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
One of the ways that God seems to act ( I am speaking here of personal experience, the testimony of history, and yes Biblical accounts), God says he is a father, and acts as one. ... We say "Go clean your room".
This argument is invalid. Children grow up, "leave the nest" and become parents themselves, so their parents no longer have control over them. Not the case with the god you describe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
We have given evidence of how God has preserved His Word - Dead Sea Scrolls and such - over thousands of years, and that there were specific prophecies there that were fulfilled, hundreds of years after they were spoken.
This is not enough. All of your "evidences" are ancient texts, and there aren't many of those. As reed9 pointed out, to prove something, you need a lot of evidence proving same things. (Assuming the god existed) the lack of "modern" evidence could indicate that god is dead and no longer exists, for example (An omnipotent deity can die by destroying itself. If it can't destroy itself, it is not omnipotent). The existence of sun is obvious. The existence of god is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
Against all odds, it exists.
This does not prove existence of god, but it could be used to prove that god (if exists) is a sadist and loves torturing people/nations. A god can do anything, yet it allowed a nation to suffer. Which means that it is either does not care, is not omnipotent, is sadistic or does not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
A Roman centurion, not a Jew, came to seek Christ in order that his servant...
And you should keep in mind that there is a good probability that stories recorded in bible never happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
Which is the better course, to Nash and grind your teeth in hatred of God, and die, or seek His Face and live?
Thinking in binary/"black and white" is a bad idea. By your logic there is only either "follow" or "hate", while in reality most people probably want to live peacefully without any deity bothering them.

IMO you should forget about bible and try proving existence of god without it. Bible is not authority to non-christian, so no matter what is written in it, you cannot use it as argument. Try something else. The idea is very simple - you can't use bible to prove existence of god to non-christian, because non-christians do not trust the bible, and do not believe that the bible has divine origin. I don't understand why believers can't comprehend such simple idea.

Last edited by SigTerm; 09-26-2011 at 06:16 AM.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:30 AM   #3439
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
IMO you should forget about bible and try proving existence of god without it. Bible is not authority to non-christian, so no matter what is written in it, you cannot use it as argument. Try something else. The idea is very simple - you can't use bible to prove existence of god to non-christian, because non-christians do not trust the bible, and do not believe that the bible has divine origin. I don't understand why believers can't comprehend such simple idea.
This is very important.

SWgeek and bluegospel: throwing bible quotes at atheists is like a muslim or a hindu using quotes from the Quran or the Vedas to prove to you that their god(s) are the correct ones. Their holy books don't hold any sort of authority for you.
For unbelievers it's the same, except that none of the holy books (including the bible) hold any sort of authority for us. If this is something you can't understand then whenever you quote the bible to prove your point you're wasting everyone's time.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:35 AM   #3440
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This is an utterly futile thread... carry on.

 
Old 09-26-2011, 06:46 AM   #3441
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Hi Gang;
You want more, the Bible predicts that in the end times, Israel would be a nation, once again, and this after almost two thousand years of non-existence. Now the re-emergence of this nation would be so highly improbable as to be ludicrous, more improbable than your statement that there is only a 1% chance of the Bible being the word of God, and yet it is done before your eyes.
You mentioned earlier that, "Atheists talk disparagingly about christians being simpletons". Now, I don't think that religious people as a whole are less intelligent than non-religious people. Intelligence is no protection against weird beliefs. However, for the folks who insist that Biblical prophecies are accurate and have been/are being fulfilled, I'm considering making an exception to the previous statement. This is not something there can be reasonable differences of opinion about. The prophecy thing is so far from reality, there can be no common ground, no reasoned discussion on the matter.

But on the plus side, every time you mention prophecy, it reminds me of how awful religion is, the terrible things it does to people's minds, and strengthens my resolve to fight religion in the public sphere at every chance.

Quote:
Pompeii suffered the same fate as Sodom and Gommorah. Now there was such sexual immorality there that those "ancient paragons of virtue", the Romans, basically said "For a good time, take a trip to Pompeii, and made jokes about how low they were". Is there any scripture, writing, or anything else that says "And Pompeii was overthrown by the Lord, and buried in brimstone and ash" uh, no, but there is graphic evidence as it has been excavated that they were grossly immoral, probably as careless in life as some of the other things said of our friends in Sodom and Gommorah (riotous living, and no concern for the poor), and lo and behold they suffered the same fate.
God is way too concerned with what goes on in people's pants. Seems like a bit of a perv. And Sodom and Gomorrah, lessee, group shows up asking to rape some guests who happened to be angels, but Lot says, oh no, don't do that, tell you what, I have some daughters here you can rape instead. And he's the righteous one. Then later, his wife is turned to a pillar of salt for the egregious sin of looking backwards, good one God, and Lot's daughters plot to bone the old man. Love those morals.

But in all seriousness, if your God condemns homosexuality, he is immoral and wrong. End of story.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 09:18 AM   #3442
swgeek
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"But in all seriousness, if your God condemns homosexuality, he is immoral and wrong. End of story."

Oh, really?
You call me an idiot (basically) for looking at the bible, seeing that (thousands of years ago) it predicts (just one of many things that have come true) that in the end of things that God will bring a nation (Israel), which he scattered to the four corners of the globe for their sin and rebellion (Historically it is a fact that they were scattered, the reason is given in the bible, which you are free to believe or disbelieve), back to their national homeland, and establish them, and that happens.

We have in our own species male and female, man and woman, who were OBVIOUSLY made to join sexually - to reproduce, to have fun, to express love. Joe and John; Sally and Betty are off in the corner using the body in ways that are seemingly obviously not meant to be done, are non-reproductive and even they have problems with where to put a penis / I don't have one and need it (there is a huge strap on industry out there), and God is immoral and wrong for saying "Don't do that, that is not the way I designed it"?

I am sorry, but if that is what modern man calls intelligence, then I guess I am stupid, and unafraid to be so. What you are saying in essence is "NO GOD, PERIOD, I'M NOT LISTENING, LA,LA,LA,LA" - Ok, prove God.

If I go to the book store, (and I do often, I love books, many different kinds of them), and go to the "science" section, I find (literally) shelves full of books where modern evolutionary scientists ponder deeply

Why are we here.

Why does sex exist (and yes that is problematic from an early evolutionist view)

Why do people have morals and as society seems to need some moral / law base to even function, where do we hypothesize a set and how do we get society to agree on it? (moral order needs to exist, if there is none, and that is the one of the problems when one says that there is no god. (If you are free, by "there is no god" to go and have sex with anyone, or anything, in any way you choose, and the big number 1 is God (in the sense that you and you alone are the arbiter of all things moral within your purview) then why are you offended if someone takes a baby and screws and beats it to death - they are only acting out their proclivities, which is their right if we are just happenstance, rather than created beings))

Where is the missing link

Where is the "God particle" which holds all this matter together when in our theory it should just (basically) explode (and so we can prove this God Thing belief wrong)

How did we evolve.

Where are we going.

What should I do (I have to work out some belief system to base my moral logical life on)

And I am simple for avoiding all that rubbish, and reading my bible, and I'M wasting my time?
The SWgeek
 
Old 09-26-2011, 09:55 AM   #3443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
"But in all seriousness, if your God condemns homosexuality, he is immoral and wrong. End of story."

Oh, really?
You call me an idiot (basically) for looking at the bible, seeing that (thousands of years ago) it predicts (just one of many things that have come true) that in the end of things that God will bring a nation (Israel), which he scattered to the four corners of the globe for their sin and rebellion (Historically it is a fact that they were scattered, the reason is given in the bible, which you are free to believe or disbelieve), back to their national homeland, and establish them, and that happens.
I would say not so much idiot as, based on your postings here, profoundly uninformed about science and logic.

Quote:
We have in our own species male and female, man and woman, who were OBVIOUSLY made to join sexually - to reproduce, to have fun, to express love. Joe and John; Sally and Betty are off in the corner using the body in ways that are seemingly obviously not meant to be done, are non-reproductive and even they have problems with where to put a penis / I don't have one and need it (there is a huge strap on industry out there), and God is immoral and wrong for saying "Don't do that, that is not the way I designed it"?
Quote:
Why does sex exist (and yes that is problematic from an early evolutionist view)
No, it's not.

Quote:
Why do people have morals and as society seems to need some moral / law base to even function, where do we hypothesize a set and how do we get society to agree on it? (moral order needs to exist, if there is none, and that is the one of the problems when one says that there is no god. (If you are free, by "there is no god" to go and have sex with anyone, or anything, in any way you choose, and the big number 1 is God (in the sense that you and you alone are the arbiter of all things moral within your purview) then why are you offended if someone takes a baby and screws and beats it to death - they are only acting out their proclivities, which is their right if we are just happenstance, rather than created beings))
Basic moral intuitions are a product of evolution. That of course, again naturalistic fallacy, does not make them intrinsically right. Morality progresses by observation, by philosophical argument, by experience of wrongs. It is not purely relative and individual because we are social creatures living together in the world. Whether human suffering means anything on a universal scale is immaterial, it means something on the scale we live at. The basic recognition that other people feel and suffer and desire just like me, ie, the ability to empathize, is in my opinion, the foundation of morality. Consenting adults are free to have sex in any way they choose and with any other consenting adults they choose. Bestiality is immoral, for example, because we cannot secure the animal's consent.

Quote:
Where is the "God particle" which holds all this matter together when in our theory it should just (basically) explode (and so we can prove this God Thing belief wrong)
What in the world are you talking about? The so called God Particle is a name given to the Higgs Boson, which is the last elementary particle predicted by the Standard Model of physics that hasn't yet been observed. We already know the Standard Model is incomplete and there are alternate hypotheses that may yet replace it should the Higgs boson not pan out.

Quote:
How did we evolve.

Where are we going.

What should I do (I have to work out some belief system to base my moral logical life on)

And I am simple for avoiding all that rubbish, and reading my bible, and I'M wasting my time?
The SWgeek
Well, I don't know about simple, but avoiding "all that rubbish" does indicate a startling lack of curiosity.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 10:21 AM   #3444
SigTerm
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Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
"But in all seriousness, if your God condemns homosexuality, he is immoral and wrong. End of story."

Oh, really?
Yes, really. If a god exists and homosexuality exists, then homosexuality is a result of gods will, otherwise it wouldn't exist. For a god condemning it would be a dumb idea, since the god has caused it to appear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
You call me an idiot (basically) for looking at the bible, seeing that (thousands of years ago) it predicts (just one of many things that have come true) that in the end of things that God will bring a nation (Israel), which he scattered to the four corners of the globe for their sin and rebellion (Historically it is a fact that they were scattered, the reason is given in the bible, which you are free to believe or disbelieve), back to their national homeland, and establish them, and that happens.

We have in our own species male and female, man and woman, who were OBVIOUSLY made to join sexually - to reproduce, to have fun, to express love.
You're speaking on gods' behalf. I do not think you're in position to actually do that. If there's a god then pretending to know god's will is blasphemy for believer, no matter what is written in your holy book. Plus same behavior exists in animal kingdom, so it is not unnatural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
God is immoral and wrong for saying "Don't do that, that is not the way I designed it"?
(Assuming a god exists) If it exists, it is result of god's design. It wouldn't exist if god wouldn't want it to exist, since a god is omnipotent and is meant to know everything. Or are you saying your god is powerless and does not know everything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
Why do people have morals and as society seems to need some moral
Morals and religion has nothing to do with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
Where are we going.

What should I do (I have to work out some belief system to base my moral logical life on)
Those question do not prove existence of god. The lack of answers to those questions, may indicate non-exsitence of god. Also, those questions are important, so ignoring them as "rubbish" isn't a very good idea.

Last edited by SigTerm; 09-26-2011 at 10:23 AM.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 11:42 AM   #3445
TobiSGD
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But from God's perspective, whom I hold to have co-authorship of the Bible, the past and future are present. God is the context of time. John 8:58
I still don't get it why so many religious people (not only Christians) believe that to be true but don't want to see the consequences.
I don't know that much about other religions, so I will talk about the Christian god: If god knows what happens in future, then he should have known that Adam and Eve will eat the fruit, nonetheless he didn't remove that tree, condemning the whole mankind to live in sin. If god knows what happens in future, why did he have to start over two times, he should have known what will happen? And why do so many people nonetheless do not believe in the Christian god, making the sacrifice of his own son somewhat useless?
He should have known all this (and I think there are more things like that).
IMHO, this can only lead to this possible conclusions:
1. There is no god.
2. There is a god, but is neither omnipotent nor all-knowing.
3. There is a omnipotent, all-knowing god, but he is not benevolent.
4. There is a god of any kind, but he simply doesn't care.

In no way can I conclude: There is a benevolent, just, loving, omnipotent and all-knowing god.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 12:07 PM   #3446
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I still don't get it why so many religious people (not only Christians) believe that to be true but don't want to see the consequences.
I don't know that much about other religions, so I will talk about the Christian god: If god knows what happens in future, then he should have known that Adam and Eve will eat the fruit, nonetheless he didn't remove that tree, condemning the whole mankind to live in sin. If god knows what happens in future, why did he have to start over two times, he should have known what will happen? And why do so many people nonetheless do not believe in the Christian god, making the sacrifice of his own son somewhat useless?
He should have known all this (and I think there are more things like that).
IMHO, this can only lead to this possible conclusions:
1. There is no god.
2. There is a god, but is neither omnipotent nor all-knowing.
3. There is a omnipotent, all-knowing god, but he is not benevolent.
4. There is a god of any kind, but he simply doesn't care.

In no way can I conclude: There is a benevolent, just, loving, omnipotent and all-knowing god.
Pretty much what I wanted to say, but I'd like to add few things:

One of the things I really dislike about christianity is that if that particular god exists, then (in addition to old testament slaughter) it has allowed to happen every single atrocity ever committed, despite knowing about it and having power to prevent it (or undo damage). Every single murder, war, every single crime. No matter what is written in bible, this does not sit right with me. For example, before hitler, before ww1, before napoleon, there was a genghis khan that somehow was allowed to take over christian country and rule it for several centuries. The Genghis Khan was apparently so good at conquering, massacring, and raping people that traces of his genes are still present in many people living within former mongol empire today.

If a god is all-knowing, omnipresent and omnipotent, then it is meant to know everything, and it has the power to do anything. A complete lack of intervention indicates that either there is no god, or it is not powerful, or it is not all-knowing, or it is "evil", or it doesn't care, or it is dead. I'm sure that at least some people (if granted god's power) would try to improve the world and make it better. For a being of infinite power there is no reason to "rule from shadows" using prophets that frequently end up dying horribly. It was possible for a god to prevent every single crime ever commited, but the god choose not to do so. This doesn't sound right to me.

In the end it all comes down to old problem of evil, which can't be explained by christians.
Quote:
My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [I ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy'

Last edited by SigTerm; 09-26-2011 at 12:10 PM.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 12:48 PM   #3447
netcrawl
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Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
...moral order needs to exist, if there is none, and that is the one of the problems when one says that there is no god. (If you are free, by "there is no god" to go and have sex with anyone, or anything, in any way you choose, and the big number 1 is God (in the sense that you and you alone are the arbiter of all things moral within your purview) then why are you offended if someone takes a baby and screws and beats it to death - they are only acting out their proclivities, which is their right if we are just happenstance, rather than created beings))

If the only thing that prevents you from raping and killing babies is your irrational belief (read: faith) and fear of eternal damnation from an invisible supernatural god-thing, I would ask you to keep your faith.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 02:39 PM   #3448
swgeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netcrawl View Post
If the only thing that prevents you from raping and killing babies is your irrational belief (read: faith) and fear of eternal damnation from an invisible supernatural god-thing, I would ask you to keep your faith.
No its not, the point I am making is that evolution / atheism is still struggling with some basic questions. I do not lampoon you for believing in it, but would put forth that there are other belief systems oppose evolution / atheism that may very well be true. All of the "evidence" that points to evolution may in fact someday have to be viewed in a different light. This very day we are witnessing the repudiation of some of Einstein's theory. Was Einstein an idiot, no a genius, but not entirely correct.
The things that are under discussion have been hotly discussed for ages. There have been converts going both ways. Is there evidence for both sides, yeah, some, but not one of us was there at the beginning, to attest, see, there, that is how it was done.
No matter what you think of God, the Bible, or any other thing, Jesus Christ is the arguably the most influential, pivotal human being that ever lived. What is asked is "Who is this man". Even if he is the greatest teacher who ever lived, the most perfect example of a human being, he is ignorable, being just a man. If, however, he is who he says he is, then he is not ignorable. So the question remains, Who is this man, and if the answer is "The Christ, the Son of the Living God", then how shall we then live. If there is no God, and we are just amoeba spawn, then there are many, many questions that plague the race.
So as Jesus said to Peter "who do you say I am?".
later
The SWGeek
 
Old 09-26-2011, 03:00 PM   #3449
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Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
I still don't get it why so many religious people (not only Christians) believe that to be true but don't want to see the consequences.
I don't know that much about other religions, so I will talk about the Christian god: If god knows what happens in future, then he should have known that Adam and Eve will eat the fruit, nonetheless he didn't remove that tree, condemning the whole mankind to live in sin. If god knows what happens in future, why did he have to start over two times, he should have known what will happen? And why do so many people nonetheless do not believe in the Christian god, making the sacrifice of his own son somewhat useless?
He should have known all this (and I think there are more things like that).
IMHO, this can only lead to this possible conclusions:
1. There is no god.
2. There is a god, but is neither omnipotent nor all-knowing.
3. There is a omnipotent, all-knowing god, but he is not benevolent.
4. There is a god of any kind, but he simply doesn't care.

In no way can I conclude: There is a benevolent, just, loving, omnipotent and all-knowing god.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Pretty much what I wanted to say, but I'd like to add few things:

One of the things I really dislike about christianity is that if that particular god exists, then (in addition to old testament slaughter) it has allowed to happen every single atrocity ever committed, despite knowing about it and having power to prevent it (or undo damage). Every single murder, war, every single crime. No matter what is written in bible, this does not sit right with me. For example, before hitler, before ww1, before napoleon, there was a genghis khan that somehow was allowed to take over christian country and rule it for several centuries. The Genghis Khan was apparently so good at conquering, massacring, and raping people that traces of his genes are still present in many people living within former mongol empire today.

If a god is all-knowing, omnipresent and omnipotent, then it is meant to know everything, and it has the power to do anything. A complete lack of intervention indicates that either there is no god, or it is not powerful, or it is not all-knowing, or it is "evil", or it doesn't care, or it is dead. I'm sure that at least some people (if granted god's power) would try to improve the world and make it better. For a being of infinite power there is no reason to "rule from shadows" using prophets that frequently end up dying horribly. It was possible for a god to prevent every single crime ever commited, but the god choose not to do so. This doesn't sound right to me.

In the end it all comes down to old problem of evil, which can't be explained by christians.

It will probably answer all your questions if you know why we are here.... why we all got life.... To answer you in simple words, we are here for test how do we live our life. How do we behave to our brothers, elders, other creators etc....Do we obey the rules of Almighty God. etc etc....

God knows past, present and ofcourse future. He is well knowing of everything. Each and every soul has to taste death, there is no exception. There will be judgement day. Each and every soul will brought up and God will be no unjust to anyone that day. Hitler killed million of jews. If we would have caught him, what maximum punishment we could have given him. Just maximum one life sentence. What about other 999,999. We can not punish him for everyone, but God can punish him in hell. Same way if you are very good human being, your life on earth will be beautiful and that will be nothing compare to what God will reward you in paradise.

God has given you will knowledge and wisdom to decide whats wrong, and whats right. There will be no person who could say that I did this sin because you God already has written in my fate. We all are sole responsible for our deeds. Dont we? Do you feel any time any unseen power is controlling your body and forcing you to do sin... NO... We are doing sin with our choice. So we should be ready for result.

We all know this, but I dont know why do we not accept it.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 03:00 PM   #3450
reed9
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Originally Posted by swgeek View Post
No its not, the point I am making is that evolution / atheism is still struggling with some basic questions.
Better to struggle and not know than offer false answers and certainty.

Quote:
I do not lampoon you for believing in it, but would put forth that there are other belief systems oppose evolution / atheism that may very well be true. All of the "evidence" that points to evolution may in fact someday have to be viewed in a different light. This very day we are witnessing the repudiation of some of Einstein's theory. Was Einstein an idiot, no a genius, but not entirely correct.
We are not witnessing the repudiation of Einstein. We have one small result that may or may not pan out, but almost certainly will not. I rather hope it does. How exciting! But we've known for decades that Einstein wasn't entirely correct.

Anyway, evolution is not synonymous with atheism. Atheism is not a scientific theory. Evolution is as close to fact as any science can be. Even so, it may be overturned someday, though it's about as likely as the heliocentric theory of the solar system being overturned. That, however, is the strength of science. There is no dogma, there is no eternal "truth". There is observation and evidence and theory must conform to the evidence.

Quote:
Is there evidence for both sides, yeah, some, but not one of us was there at the beginning, to attest, see, there, that is how it was done.
No, one side has faith, which is belief without evidence. You said yourself earlier, if I recall, that God cannot be proven.

Quote:
No matter what you think of God, the Bible, or any other thing, Jesus Christ is the arguably the most influential, pivotal human being that ever lived. What is asked is "Who is this man". Even if he is the greatest teacher who ever lived, the most perfect example of a human being, he is ignorable, being just a man.
Well, he's not. Everything good thing he preached had been taught for centuries before. He didn't originate any moral teachings.

Quote:
If, however, he is who he says he is, then he is not ignorable.
Sure he is. Why exactly does God want a bunch of worshiping sycophants down here?

Quote:
"Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence."
Bertrand Russell's reply when asked what he would say if he died and found himself confronted by God, demanding to know why Russell had not believed in him.

Quote:
If there is no God, and we are just amoeba spawn, then there are many, many questions that plague the race.
So as Jesus said to Peter "who do you say I am?".
later
The SWGeek
Positing God doesn't answer any questions. It prevents answers to questions. Why do people get sick? God did it. Why is the sky blue? God did it. How did life arise? God did it. Does this increase our understanding? Does this answer the questions? It's a meaningless reply, a non-answer. It kills mystery and wonder and inquiry and curiosity.

Last edited by reed9; 09-26-2011 at 03:33 PM.
 
  


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