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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 168 28.82%
Deist 18 3.09%
Theist 23 3.95%
Agnostic 120 20.58%
Atheist 254 43.57%
Voters: 583. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-10-2007, 11:04 AM   #331
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
I don't see the difference between Satan and Hades. Why would one be a god and the other a creature.
Sorry, can't help you with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
Christians used much of the old mythology and festivals, they just redefined it to suit themselves.
While this is quite correct (like the time and paraphernalia for
Easter and Christmas) for many cases Stan predates Christianity. :}




Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 12-10-2007, 11:17 AM   #332
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Could any religious person give me just one good reason to believe in supernatural god-beings?
 
Old 12-10-2007, 11:33 AM   #333
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http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030225
... religeosness of methodologies like .net and java.

Quote:
Could any religious person give me just one good reason to believe in supernatural god-beings?
You mean for oneself or for other people?
 
Old 12-10-2007, 11:52 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
You mean for oneself or for other people?
Generally. I see no reason to believe in such, but maybe some of the religious ones here could enlighten me with some good reasons. I'm sure all of you have a good reason.

Last edited by Grife; 12-10-2007 at 11:56 AM.
 
Old 12-10-2007, 12:09 PM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grife View Post
Could any religious person give me just one good reason to believe in supernatural god-beings?
Define reason?

If it's something that "makes sense" I'd happy to try; if
it's based on the delusion that humans can be purely rational,
and you're asking for a proof of the existence of God - sorry,
I can't.


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 12-10-2007, 12:14 PM   #336
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I am so happy and relieved that not only I am confused here with the Trinity concept. I tried to comprehend it, but no matter how I looked, it always pointed into the direction of "threesome-ness". No wander that the early church declared the subject out of bounce for independent inquiry by a layman. In Christianity you have to believe in all these things for them to make sense. Otherwise it is like Cirque du Soleil: nice live music, breath taking decorations, and a ring master wearing extremely unusual hat. Only some tricks are really creepy: transformation of wine into blood, and bread into body with sequentional consumption of both.

I like the way the thread is going: first Muslim bashing, later Catholisim. Now I suggest: do Judaism, they wear funny fury hats too, even when it is 40 C outside, probably because there is a law based on some obscure passage in Torah, commented by about hundred wise sages during the last few centuries. And do they firmly believe that god wants them to sweat, or they don't question it because it is the law?
 
Old 12-10-2007, 01:33 PM   #337
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
Yes, I know. That's my problem. you are espousing that something is true, without giving any evidence.
It's two separate things. I never said I was presenting a thesis on the subject. But, from the very beginning, a summation of it. Do you know what a summation is?


Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
As I said. Personal experience. giving it a different name does not make it correct. Saying "I know, because I know, because I know" does not mean you are right.
It is not mere personal experience. The knowledge of the existence of God is something that is written on the hearts of all men. Of course, it is easy to ignore that voice through our own failings. But, if you listen to your heart, the law is there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
The arguments that you provide as explanation seem to say that: "Our one God is actually comprised of three separate entities, and the proof is that we have these three separate Gods that operate under one head."
Where did I ever say three separate entities? I didn't - so don't quote me on something I never said!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
Regardless of all of that, the Athanasian Creed does not even attempt to offer any evidence of its claims. and is therefore irrelevant.
Again, it is a summation of the faith, not a thesis or proof of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
The only thing in this particular branch of discussion that is relevant, is that you claimed to know that there is a god, and that Catholicism is the "one true faith". Anything that you post after that initial premise is irrelevant until you either prove your claim, or in the absence of proof, abandon it.

The same goes for anyone who makes the claim that something exists.
If you want to get started on reading something, you can start with this:
Dominus Iesus



If you don't even understand the basic concepts (whether you agree with them or not) how do you expect to have any type of fruitful dialogue?
 
Old 12-10-2007, 01:47 PM   #338
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
Christianity, and especially the catholic faith, is not monotheism, of course.

It pulls all sorts of tricks, like the trinity, to try and pretend, but it's very much polytheistic. It has the father, son, holy spirit. There are minor gods, the angels, even back from the OT. Mortals are even elevated to minor god status in the saints. The excuse is that all these are part of the one god.

Sure, there is a boss god, but then we also can point to Zues and Ra or whoever. I can just as easily say that the greek gods were all parts of the 'olympian god consortium' and call it monotheism. Sheesh.

Stop pretending and see the reality
Again, this shows a lack of knowledge of what the Trinity is. We must understand what each other mean when we say things or else any sort of communication is impossible. The Athanasian Creed is the summation of what the Catholic Church professes with the doctrine of the Trinity. I will post the section of the Athanasian Creed again for your convience:

We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
Oops, I missed these later replies. Looks like more pretending

By definition, christians worship christ, yet acknowledge he has a (god) father and a mother. Then we still have the holy spirit and all the other god-like minor figures, angels, saints. And lets not forget Satan. Is Satan part of the trinity? This is a major independent figure with clear godly powers. There are clear similarities to Satan in other polytheistic faiths.

So please explain Satan if none of the others. He is part of the christian polytheism. He is the christian hades. Hell is the christian hades underworld. Even jesus had to suffer the temptation of hades - ah - Satan.

The reality is that christians and esp catholics DO pray to the minor god figures. They pray to mary, the saints, and all the rest. Like an Egyptian pharaoh, they are elevated to deity status.

As I say. I can just as easily say the Olympian gods are all one god by giving it a name, like the trinity.

Jehovah's Witnesses are a bit more monotheistic than most and they believe the dead are just dead and there is no hell...

But catholics. Well, I remember the teachings of a few levels of heaven and hell, but it's been a while
The Angels are not minor gods. They are created non-corporeal beings. Man is made of matter (body) and spirit (soul), but Angels are pure spirit. They are not divine, but they do have a higher intellect than man does.

The Saints are holy men and women who have entered into the splendor of Heaven. They serve to primary purposes - inspiration and intercession. They inspire us as role models in the Christian life. We look up to them in the same way many people look up to athletes and celebrities (only we look at their holiness and not their fame and money - or other less desirable characteristics). They also intercede for us to God. Just like we can ask people here on earth to pray for us, we can ask the Saints in Heaven to pray for us. They are superb intercessors because God listens most closely to those who are closer to Him.

Satan was an angel and was created good, very good. He was the highest and brightest of all of God's Angels. But because of sin, he fell. We don't know exactly what his sin was, but many theologians speculate that it was the sin of pride. So, in this sin he turned completely against God and was turned to an angel of darkness (God is pure light and the absence of God is darkness). Due to the fact that the Angels have a higher intellect, they were immediately confirmed in their choice. It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death. (St. John Damascene, Defide orth. 2, 4: PG 94, 877.)" (CCC, 393)
 
Old 12-10-2007, 01:56 PM   #339
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
I don't see the difference between Satan and Hades. Why would one be a god and the other a creature.

Christians used much of the old mythology and festivals, they just redefined it to suit themselves.
One is not a god and the other a creature. One is a myth and the other a fallen creature. Satan is not as powerful as God, he is not a 'good guy' who happens to manage a netherworld. He ambitiously wanted to be God, and this sin radically, irrevocably, and unforgivably transformed him into a fallen angel.

In Greek mythology, all mortals went to the realm of Hades. But Satan only devours those who turn and reject God. When a person dies, if they by free will choose to not be with God, then God will not force them to be with Him. And because they do not want to be with God, they will not and cannot stay in Heaven before the blazing glory of God.
 
Old 12-10-2007, 01:59 PM   #340
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by trickykid View Post
Just like christmas trees that were once condemned but now they use it as their own tradition. And Easter was a named derived from the Goddess Eostre. All religions are known to rip off from one another. They should create a patent system..
You are correct - the word Easter comes from the Teutonic goddess Estre, according to the Venerable Bede. But that is an English word, not a word of the official language of the Church. The official word in the official language is Pascha - which is derived from the Hebrew for the Passover feast.
 
Old 12-10-2007, 02:06 PM   #341
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grife View Post
Could any religious person give me just one good reason to believe in supernatural god-beings?
Look at the awe inspiring creation. Even the most ardent skeptic still doesn't know how creation started. They say it started with the Big Bang (which is a theory created by a Catholic Priest, by the way) and I do believe in the Big Bang. But ask them where did the matter of the Big Bang come from - or how did the Big Bang get ignited? They don't know. The scientists can only get as far as about a billionth of a second after the Big Bang.

But I know - God said let there be light <BIG BANG> and there was light.



Look at morality. What can explain the transcendence of morality throughout mankind. We just know that it is wrong to steal, murder, lie, etc. The reason is because God has written His law upon our hearts.


If you want a more indepth discussion, I recommend this book for reading:

Reasons to Believe by Dr. Scott Hahn
 
Old 12-10-2007, 02:07 PM   #342
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsashok View Post
I am so happy and relieved that not only I am confused here with the Trinity concept. I tried to comprehend it, but no matter how I looked, it always pointed into the direction of "threesome-ness". No wander that the early church declared the subject out of bounce for independent inquiry by a layman.
Don't feel too bad. While we can know the basic concept (see my posting of a section of the Athanasian Creed), it is impossible, due to to our limited intellect, to fully comprehend the nature of the Trinity in this life. It is one of the Mysteries of our Faith.
 
Old 12-10-2007, 02:56 PM   #343
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
I wonder how many Popes or Patriarchs are of the tribe of
Levi ... I guess not that many? While the old Testament
*does* have a line of succession it's biological, not spiritual.
What it shows is that while the whole nation of Israel was set aside as a nation of priests, a select group was set aside to be part of a ministerial priesthood.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
All unrelated to the topic at hand.
Here we're talking about Jesus' chosen ministers to share in His ministry and authority.

Matthew 10:1 - Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to drive them out and to cure every disease and every illness. (Jesus gives a special authority over creation to His twelve Apostles)

Matthew 10:40 - Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. (Jesus says that the Apostles have the authority to teach in His Name)

Matthew 16:18-19 - And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Jesus gives to Peter a special ministry and the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, a share in His authority)

Matthew 18:18 - Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Jesus gives His Apostles the share in His authority to bind and loose, a share in His authority - He gives them the power to make visible decisions here on earth and that those decisions will be ratified in Heaven)

Luke 10:16-19 - Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." The seventy (-two) returned rejoicing, and said, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us because of your name." Jesus said, "I have observed Satan fall like lightning 8 from the sky. Behold, I have given you the power 'to tread upon serpents' and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you." (Jesus gives the Apostles a share in His teaching authority and power over creation)

Luke 22:29-30 - and I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father has conferred one on me, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Jesus gives over the gift of the kingdom of Heaven to His Apostles and the authority to judge)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
No mention of apostles in any of those, neither of ordination; it's
all about Jesus' self-confession. As for the powers described in
your quotes from Ch 16 onwards, they're from "the holy spirit", not
"by ordination". Chs 17 and 20 speaks of the desciples (the whole
lot, not just the "core team").
I didn't say that they directly mentioned the Apostles. They show that by man (Jesus is speaking in His nature as man), but through the authority of God that Jesus and His Apostles have a share in that authority.

In John chapter sixteen, it shows that the authority that Jesus gives to His Apostles is not lessened - it is the same as that Jesus has from His Father. The Holy Spirit will guide the Church, whose shepherds are the Bishops.

And Christ's words ONLY apply to His ordained ministers - as Saint John Chrysostom says: As a king sending forth governors, gives power to cast into prison and to deliver from it, so in sending these forth, Christ invests them with the same power. (Commentaries on John, 86, 3)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
Acts: no mention of ordination.
Eph: Apostles and prophets, no word of ordination.
Peter: lovely, but no mention of ordination.
Only ordained men may be Apostles and Shepherds of the Church.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
Nuh, mate, I'm sorry ... but the things you're pulling out of the
hat don't warrant what you're trying to prove.
And for you to quote timothy 3:1 (read verse 2, too?) is almost
too funny; none of the Catholic fellows qualify, celibate and
all. "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,
vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt
to teach;"
What Paul was saying was that those with more than one wife are not to be admitted (polygamy was still common then). But the Church's teaching on clerical celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine.

Acts shows that the Apostles authority given by Christ is to be handed down to others (through Ordination, which reads in Scripture as laying on of hands). Paul cautions Timothy (a Bishop Paul ordained) to be careful in those whom Timothy ordains - not everyone is called to the Priesthood.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
If tradition was that important we should be something else
all together ... ;} "Roses are red-ish, violets are blue-ish,
if it wasn't for Christmas we all would be jewish..."
Huh???
 
Old 12-10-2007, 03:21 PM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grife
Could any religious person give me just one good reason to believe in supernatural god-beings?
They couldn't give you any real concise and logical reasons, but just try to scare you in saying, "well, if you don't believe in 'god' or 'my god'" you are doomed and will suffer an eternity of pain. It is nothing more than a scare tactic which luckily has less and less chances of succeeding for one main reason, education. People these days, unlike centuries ago have access to more information and not limited to 'word of mouth' by others, and forced to take everything at face value of what a preacher tells them too. Of course there is still the physical threat, and even the threat of death, mostly now by muslims to try to convert non believers.

Again, I invoke George Carlin.

Note: I know that in many past posted in this thread I have referred many times to George Carlin. He may be a comedian, but he does raise good points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Djohakx_FE

"Do you believe in God?"
"No"
BANG YOU'RE DEAD!

"Do you believe in God?"
"yes"
"Do you believe in my God?"
"No"
BANG YOU'RE DEAD!
 
Old 12-10-2007, 03:52 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Look at the awe inspiring creation. Even the most ardent skeptic still doesn't know how creation started. They say it started with the Big Bang (which is a theory created by a Catholic Priest, by the way) and I do believe in the Big Bang. But ask them where did the matter of the Big Bang come from - or how did the Big Bang get ignited? They don't know. The scientists can only get as far as about a billionth of a second after the Big Bang.

But I know - God said let there be light <BIG BANG> and there was light.
The universe is big, I mean very big. We are only a very small part of it, very small. We are still in our infancy when it comes to technology and intelligence. We are still very barbaric and stupid. Humans are stupid and will hopefully one day learn from their mistakes as intelligent animals.

Life according to most scientists emerged around or before 3500 Ma. So what was your God doing the first billion years after the Big Bang? Oh wait, he said, let there be light. That wasn't the Big Bang, cause if he was talking about the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, that would mean our Sun was our light source, not the Big Bang. And of course we can't prove what existed before or where the matter came from by the Big Bang theory, there was an explosion and all the evidence went kaboom.

To me the bible leaves out a very high percentage of details. Perhaps if your God wants to prove his existence, he should write his own bible instead of allowing men with freedom of thought write such things to fabricate why they exist.

And the priest you speak of is Georges Lemaître? Was more of a Physics Professor and Astronomer. Anyone can be a priest or minister. I can get certified to marry people online for crying out loud. And he noted that the universe was created from a primeval atom, which paved the way to the Big Bang theory that involved more than just himself and his theories at the time. He's credited for it but didn't really come up with the whole theory we know of today as the Big Bang all on his own, he got a lot of help from Alexander Friedman. Both found that the universe must be expanding. Lemaître went further than Friedman, since he concluded that an initial "creation-like" event must have occurred. But really all of these theories derived from Hubble's Law. Hopefully you know what that is so I don't have to explain it. And being a priest means nothing really on the Big Bang theory. I'm an Atheist and still conclude it's still a theory, but it seems more realistic and proof than any known bible on this planet that man created has about our very large universe with a lot of unexplained things.

We still find new species of animals on a weekly basis. I thought Adam named all known creatures. At least that's what I was taught in Sunday school as a child. And what about dinosaurs? Men thought the Earth was flat until someone decided to keep sailing and I don't even credit Christopher Columbus with that. What's even written in history books isn't totally true. We celebrate Columbus day here in America, that's like celebrating rapist day. Cause that's what they did and they even took them as slaves when they arrived here. That's another story though.

In all honesty, as complex as life is, that's a driving reason for me to believe there is no God. DNA and all the complex things that make up life and evolution is too advanced for anyone, even a God to come up with or create. Life is a freak accident and if we never picked up those tools thousands of years ago to defend ourselves from predators that could eat us, it wouldn't have sparked that wrinkle in our brain to grow wiser and smarter to expand our brains further or we'd still be sitting on the forest bed playing with each others hair, removing dingleberries from our neighbors bum and all the other fun things primates get to do or get away with...

Last edited by trickykid; 12-10-2007 at 03:55 PM.
 
  


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