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Old 09-25-2011, 07:18 PM   #3421
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
If that's the case, every justice system that considers human testimony should be revoked.
Yes. Well, not completely revoked, but it is well known to be terribly unreliable and many places have finally been implementing new guidelines on its use in recognition of that fact.


Quote:
On what other basis is evolution established? Give me a single (exactly) piece of scientific evidence that is most conclusive --to you--of either evolution, or the absence of a living God. I guarantee it's no more conclusive that the evidence I give you of a living God--that being sensation. Furthermore, I could cite that everything needed by humanity--air, water, food, shelter just happens to be available on this earth for us; the majestic nature of the various satellites in our universe; the intricacies of microcosms & macrocosms; and on and on. And you could cite various other specimens noted by your camp. Still, you can't conclude either way, except by faith.
We've discussed evolution in depth on previous pages and I'm not interested in rehashing it. Read "The Greatest Show on Earth", read "Why Evolution is True", read the website talkorigins.org. Be active in your own education.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 07:26 PM   #3422
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Wrong. As I said, Isaiah prophesied 150 years prior to king Cyrus, whom he named as the one who would give Israel freedom to return. Jeremiah prophesied 20 years prior to the exile that their exile would last 70 years.
Yes, I know what you said. But this isn't a game of he said/she said. Your claim contradicts Biblical experts. The burden is on you to present EVIDENCE why they are wrong, not assertions. But Biblical scholarship places the prophecy portion of Isaiah around 530-ish BCE.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 07:29 PM   #3423
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Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
We've discussed evolution in depth on previous pages and I'm not interested in rehashing it. Read "The Greatest Show on Earth", read "Why Evolution is True", read the website talkorigins.org. Be active in your own education.
Clearly evasive. You're asking me to study several sources because you can't answer a very simple question--one specimen that you consider evidence supporting your view.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 07:34 PM   #3424
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Originally Posted by bluegospel
science is one of many ways to look at the universe. Art ought not be sneezed at, nor should the spirit of a man.
Ugh…can we leave art out of this, please? Art may be a great way of learning about ourselves and the human condition, but it's hardly a way of objectively studying the universe. I do not want this to turn into another discussion over the value of human creativity (or lack thereof).

[troll]
Actually, I've got a better idea: why don't we just stop all this arguing over the existence/non-existence of $DEITY, and try making plans for attempting to survive the Singularity…will humans eventually be totally superseded by sentient machines? Will us meat-sacks stand a chance (in any domain: science, the arts, government, war, etc.) against the exponentially self-improving mechanized menace? Stay tuned to find out!
[/troll]

Also, @reed9: that NYT article requires a login to read. Maybe try something else?

Last edited by MrCode; 09-25-2011 at 07:37 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 07:44 PM   #3425
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Originally Posted by MrCode View Post
Art may be a great way of learning about ourselves and the human condition, but it's hardly a way of objectively studying the universe.
How else can we account for the prevelance of very pronounced anomalies in an otherwise very consistent universe? For example, the alignment of the seasons, solar years and lunar years? The motions of the earth and moon are clearly consistent, and yet they're out of order. That's because nature is designed to be looked at scientifically and artistically, besides naturally.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 07:45 PM   #3426
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I understand that. But from God's perspective, whom I hold to have co-authorship of the Bible, the past and future are present. God is the context of time.
If a god can predict the future, then the whole idea with jesus and final judgment is a massive waste of time and even less unlikely to be true. Why would a deity communicate with humans if it knows precisely what will happen as a result?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Since your so vastly more scientific than I am,
Is this a bad joke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
you ought to see the eternal intelligence and artistic significance in a strand of DNA. It's obviously not that way by mere chance.
I do not see eternal intelligence in DNA. People are still deciphering it, so until work is done, it'll be hard to talk about any kind of intelligence in it. To estimate "intelligence" (if present) behind DNA program, I need to see source code. Aside from DNA, I certainly do not see "eternal intelligence" in the rest of the world. "Eternal indifference", perhaps, but definitely not "intelligence". Complexity is not a proof of intelligent design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Of course it hasn't because you're partial to the Darwin-Dawkins-et.al. camp.
  1. You should be really careful when quoting something. Most of the text you quoted did not belong to sycamorex.
  2. And you shouldn't think that atheists, agnostics and people that admire/trust/respect dawkings all belong to same camp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
I submit rather, "you accept it when it agrees with what you prefer."
Agnostic position is "I don't know", so there is no preference. Provide evidence. However your evidence must be really good and undeniable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
I didn't say an exhaustive history. I said complete, meaning in breadth--from-to, not everything in-between.
Sounds like sophistry to me.
"complete" is incompatible with "not everything in-between". Without "everything in-between" history is incomplete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
There is an exhaustive written history, which will be used in the judgment. (See Revelation)
I'd like to take a look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Okay, and that's very good, except in the case where there is a God, and he does attest to certain standards. In that case, his position of authority is completely valid. And when a remnant of humanity testifies unanimously what has been attested to them, and moreover to the extremity of love, provision, tolerance and kindness they've experienced in God, that evidence--very real testimony--ought not be dismissed as fiction.
IMO, you trust bible too much.
What makes you think that if there is a god then it is a christian god? What makes you think that a deity will attest to certain standard? A deity can be anything, and it does not necessarily follow or care about human moral standards. For all practical purposes it could easily be a lovecraftian abomination that will awaken one day to devour entire universe just for the heck of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Wrong. As I said, Isaiah prophesied 150 years prior to king Cyrus, whom he named as the one who would give Israel freedom to return. Jeremiah prophesied 20 years prior to the exile that their exile would last 70 years.
Great. What makes you think this actually happened?
Even if a bible describes correct historic events, it can't be used as a proof of its validity, simply because it is possible to write a historical record, then add fairytale at the end of it to make it look more interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
My personal position that God co-authored the Bible is a valid variable. Valid scientific bases used by atheists are valid variables.
No, your personal position is not a valid variable. As I already mentioned, science can be rebuilt from scratch, using experiments as a proof. Religion can't be rebuilt in the same way. You have nothing to support your position. Regarding science, as far as I know it doesn't have a proof of existence of god, but doesn't have a proof of non-existence of god either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
How else can we account for the prevelance of very pronounced anomalies in an otherwise very consistent universe? For example, the alignment of the seasons, solar years and lunar years? The motions of the earth and moon are clearly consistent, and yet they're out of order. That's because nature is designed to be looked at scientifically and artistically, besides naturally.
/facepalm
What you even talking about? Please, read any astronomy book about moon, earth and seasons before trying to use argument like that...

Last edited by SigTerm; 09-25-2011 at 07:50 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 08:04 PM   #3427
reed9
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Clearly evasive. You're asking me to study several sources because you can't answer a very simple question--one specimen that you consider evidence supporting your view.
Because that isn't how science works. One piece of evidence is never conclusive. It is the multiple lines of converging evidence from many different fields that makes evolution such a strong theory. It is the fact that outside of physics, evolution is probably the most successful theory in science.

But if you insist on one thing, observed speciation is up there.

"Woman Skeptic: Professor Haldane, even given the billions of years that you say were available for evolution, I simply cannot believe it is possible to go from a single cell to a complicated human body with its trillions of cells organized into bones and muscle and nerves, a heart that pumps without ceasing for decades, miles and miles of blood vessels and kidney tubules, and a brain capable of thinking and feeling.

Haldane: But Madam, you did it yourself! And it only took nine months."
-Exchange between JBS Haldane and women, as told by Dawkins.

@MrCode
Hmm, the link worked for me without logging in. But here is another.

Quote:
Eyewitness misidentification is the leading cause of wrongful convictions, playing a role in 75% of the 254 DNA exoneration cases to date.
Testimony, schmestimony.

Last edited by reed9; 09-25-2011 at 08:06 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 08:24 PM   #3428
bluegospel
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
What you even talking about? Please, read any astronomy book about moon, earth and seasons before trying to use argument like that...
I don't have to read a book to understand that the sun "rises and sets" daily, and yet the number of days in a year aren't fixed. We have to adjust our calendar year every 4 years to align it with the solar year because a complete revolution of the earth around the sun is not aligned with a complete cycle of seasons, for which our calendar year accounts. That's what I mean when I say anomolies (deviations) in an otherwise consistent universe. They have to be accounted for artistically, or else merely speculatively or ignored completely.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 08:27 PM   #3429
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
I don't have to read a book to understand that the sun "rises and sets" daily, and yet the number of days in a year aren't fixed. We have to adjust our calendar year every 4 years to align it with the solar year because a complete revolution of the earth around the sun is not aligned with a complete cycle of seasons, for which our calendar year accounts. That's what I mean when I say anomolies (deviations) in an otherwise consistent universe. They have to be accounted for artistically, or else merely speculatively or ignored completely.
Kids, this is your brain on religion. I'd rather you did drugs.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/earth-orbit.html

Last edited by reed9; 09-25-2011 at 08:29 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 08:43 PM   #3430
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
I don't have to read a book to understand that the sun "rises and sets" daily, and yet the number of days in a year aren't fixed. We have to adjust our calendar year every 4 years to align it with the solar year because a complete revolution of the earth around the sun is not aligned with a complete cycle of seasons, for which our calendar year accounts. That's what I mean when I say anomolies (deviations) in an otherwise consistent universe. They have to be accounted for artistically, or else merely speculatively or ignored completely.
This is not a real argument that can be taken seriously. If you want to continue discussion, provide real arguments.

A lack of perfect synchronization between rotations of earth and its movement around the sun(along with existence of seasons (axial tilt), non-spherical form of our planet, lack of life on the moon, irregular shapes of continents and many other things) can be easily used to used as an argument against existence of creator. If there's no perfection, then there is hardly any reason to think that it was an intelligent design created by omnipotent being.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 08:45 PM   #3431
MrCode
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9
Hmm, the link worked for me without logging in. But here is another.
Hmm, the NYT link actually works for me now…odd. It asked me to log in when I tried it the first time.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 09:34 PM   #3432
bluegospel
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Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
One piece of evidence is never conclusive. It is the multiple lines of converging evidence from many different fields that makes evolution such a strong theory. But if you insist on one thing, observed speciation is up there.
Okay? I admit I've read this cursorily if incompletely, it's kind of like listening to bad music--or sandpaper across my knuckles--the problem is that, like evolutionary theory, it's purely speculative. All the author's language--"This is a topic of considerable debate (a timeless mantra of the dead-end brand of science)", "most biologists accept the idea . . .", etc. So what.

The point is, however you dress your point of view that God either does not exist, or cannot be known, it comes down to this. Your "multiple lines of converging evidence make a strong theory," is still a theory. Your view that there is not a God or that he cannot be known is based on your faith--not on evidence.

All your development of ideas supported by any kind of natural evidence begins with what you believe--your faith. You dismiss my view that there is a living God, and spite any Christian who testifies that they know him, because your faith is in a speculative science--you've got all your eggs in that one basket.

I give the gauntlet to every one of you who denies or ignores the presence of God, your whole gamut of "converging evidence" is dwarfed by the evidence of the creation itself, it's beauty even as it decays, its intricacy and majestic expanse, the capacity of the human mind and the equilibrium of the seas, the winds, and our ecosystem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
"Woman Skeptic: Professor Haldane, even given the billions of years that you say were available for evolution, I simply cannot believe it is possible to go from a single cell to a complicated human body with its trillions of cells organized into bones and muscle and nerves, a heart that pumps without ceasing for decades, miles and miles of blood vessels and kidney tubules, and a brain capable of thinking and feeling.

Haldane: But Madam, you did it yourself! And it only took nine months."
-Exchange between JBS Haldane and women, as told by Dawkins.
No, a single cell started the nine month process, but billions of cells nourished her so she could develop into the human stature comprised of billions of cells. A single cell could not do that in isolation from other cells.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 09:40 PM   #3433
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
This is not a real argument that can be taken seriously. If you want to continue discussion, provide real arguments.

A lack of perfect synchronization between rotations of earth and its movement around the sun(along with existence of seasons (axial tilt), non-spherical form of our planet, lack of life on the moon, irregular shapes of continents and many other things) can be easily used to used as an argument against existence of creator. If there's no perfection, then there is hardly any reason to think that it was an intelligent design created by omnipotent being.
Would you argue also that art has to be perfect in order to be profound? The whole Christian position is that God is perfect, not the creation; and yet the creation is majestic, and I would add, artistic. Yet God alone is perfect (and when all is said and done, Christ's bretheren will be made perfect).
 
Old 09-25-2011, 09:51 PM   #3434
reed9
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Okay? I admit I've read this cursorily if incompletely, it's kind of like listening to bad music--or sandpaper across my knuckles--the problem is that, like evolutionary theory, it's purely speculative. All the author's language--"This is a topic of considerable debate (a timeless mantra of the dead-end brand of science)", "most biologists accept the idea . . .", etc. So what.
The "considerable debate" portion is referring to defining what exactly a "species" is. You see, "species" is somewhat of an artificial distinction, a convenient label created by people for classification. The reality is a continuum, so any arbitrary definition is bound to have problems. That there is debate is the strength of science. It is the opposite of your characterization of a "dead-end brand". Ideas are tested and challenged before they can be accepted. Good scientists try to understand why and where their hypotheses could be wrong, they try to disprove themselves. This is a good thing.

Quote:
The point is, however you dress your point of view that God either does not exist, or cannot be known, it comes down to this. Your "multiple lines of converging evidence make a strong theory," is still a theory. Your view that there is not a God or that he cannot be known is based on your faith--not on evidence.
Gravity, germs, a round earth, these are all also theories. Theory is what happens when there is massive evidence supporting your hypothesis and no one has been able to shoot a hole in it.

Quote:
All your development of ideas supported by any kind of natural evidence begins with what you believe--your faith. You dismiss my view that there is a living God, and spite any Christian who testifies that they know him, because your faith is in a speculative science--you've got all your eggs in that one basket.
Only if your define my belief that, for example, I'm sitting here writing this, as faith. But we have also discussed extensively what constitutes justified belief in past pages. Please go back and read all of that before continuing.

Quote:
I give the gauntlet to every one of you who denies or ignores the presence of God, your whole gamut of "converging evidence" is dwarfed by the evidence of the creation itself, it's beauty even as it decays, its intricacy and majestic expanse, the capacity of the human mind and the equilibrium of the seas, the winds, and our ecosystem.
Round and round he goes. We just talked about this. There's no point in continuing if you're just going to ignore what other people say.
 
Old 09-26-2011, 12:29 AM   #3435
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Hi Gang;
I would like to make a comment, you probably won't like it, and from a human standpoint, I understand.
Several people here have said "show me proof" "give me an example". One of the ways that God seems to act ( I am speaking here of personal experience, the testimony of history, and yes Biblical accounts), God says he is a father, and acts as one. If I tell my son to do something, I don't start out, "Well son, I am the male biological primary cause in your case, and I pay the bills, and I'm the guy who married your mother, so would you kindly go clean your room."
Don't hand me that stuff, you do not act that way with your children, and neither do I. We say "Go clean your room". Well, God acts authoritatively because He is God. Look at the gospels, and see how "give us some proof" worked - Jesus did not deal kindly with those. A Roman centurion, not a Jew, came to seek Christ in order that his servant might be healed and live. Jesus says ok, I'll come with you. The Roman says "I am not worthy for you to come under my roof, I am a man of authority, and under authority, I say to one "go", and he goes, to another "come" and he comes. Say the word, and my servant will be healed."
It says that Jesus marveled saying "I have not found such faith in Israel - go your way, your servant is healed".
We have given evidence of how God has preserved His Word - Dead Sea Scrolls and such - over thousands of years, and that there were specific prophecies there that were fulfilled, hundreds of years after they were spoken. This is evidence. You want more, the Bible predicts that in the end times, Israel would be a nation, once again, and this after almost two thousand years of non-existence. Now the re-emergence of this nation would be so highly improbable as to be ludicrous, more improbable than your statement that there is only a 1% chance of the Bible being the word of God, and yet it is done before your eyes. Every single one of its neighbors attacked it the moment it was formed (1948 war) and several times since, vowing (to this day) its destruction. Against all odds, it exists. And it will continue to do so. We are in the information age, amidst the scientific age. In the book of Daniel, it states in one sentence, a simple prophecy. "In the end times, knowledge shall greatly increase." Now for the first eons of our existence we bumbled about behind horse drawn things stepping over horse dung. In 1903, we lifted off the face of this earth in powered flight for the first time in our existence, 66 short years, not 6,000, not 600, but 66 short years after the first flight whose entire duration was shorter than the wingspan of a modern airliner, we set foot on the moon. Today the craft used to do that looks positively primitive. And still knowledge accelerates, we not knowing where this will end at this present moment. I would safely say that what we have experienced in the last hundred years justifies Daniels prophecy, and would frame it as an extremely accurate one.
Now you say, show us something real, something we can behold in our hand as we hold it. The Bible says go out and look at the night sky, and see in it the grandeur and majesty of God through His creation - That by the by is what Romans 1 says, read it all, it has some tough things to say about humanity, and I am not going to defend it, if its God's Word, and I believe it is, he is well able. In ways what is being said here is "The hell with faith, I want to know". That is basically what Sagan said on his deathbed when asked (famous preacher, forget who they said it was), Carl, if now, facing death, he would like to believe on Christ.
In one place in the New Testament, it states that God saves men by grace through (the method) of the foolishness of preaching, so that the foolishness of God might be proven to be wiser than the wisdom of men. Now men of old, and we are contending that Christ is Gods way, but men say "We don't like that way", He says "believe what I say and come to Me" and men say "show us a sign". Jesus said "This is the sign that shall be given, that as Jonah was in the whale, so the Son of Man shall be in the earth". If Christ is not risen, why did not the Romans and the Pharisees drag his scarred, pierced body through Jerusalem, and say look these people are fools. They couldn't because it wasn't there. "The disciples stole it and hid it". Oh, rubbish, 12 fisherman and tax collectors who were cowering in an upper room versus a Roman guard - some of the greatest fighting men that ever lived and sealed with the Imperial seal (go read McDowell on this one, please)? Rubbish, Rubbish, ten times Rubbish.
Many places in the old testament, people said a sign, a sign. In one single instance, God complied, on Mt. Carmel, and I believe it was the prophet Elijah vs. the prophets of Baal. It came out God 1 Baal 0. In other instances when they asked for a sign (continuing on with their wickedness), God said, "you want a sign, I'll give a sign, and it was their utter destruction and God said "then you will know that I am".
If you would like an experiment, I will give you one, possibly that you will be most unwilling to perform. Repent, that is turn from any known, and specifically egregious sin, not as you acknowledge it, but as the bible states it, honestly ask God to reveal himself to you as you help the poor, cry for justice, seek God with your whole heart (God says that you will find me when you seek for me with your whole heart), and see how many continue on with God - a good percentage I'd wager. A learned man once gave a lecture at a college about the improbability of the Virgin Birth, Christ's resurrection and etc. An elderly man got up,having just taken a bite of an apple and asked "Sir, can you tell me how good, wholesome and sweet this apple is? The speaker said, "Can't say, I've never tasted your apple". The old man said "and neither have you tasted of the sweetness Christ whom I serve".
A sign - we seek knowledge, and a sign. If God gave a sign, even an irrefutable sign, many would talk it away, and explain it away. All the while, we propel our society towards its destruction by our own wickedness, stubbornly refusing to yield to God's authority.
I know you don't like some of this, but there are evidences. Which is the better course, to Nash and grind your teeth in hatred of God, and die, or seek His Face and live? What does the Lord require of you o man, but to do justice and walk humbly with God.
Later
The SWGeek

Last edited by swgeek; 09-26-2011 at 01:51 AM.
 
  


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