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Old 12-09-2007, 12:49 PM   #316
truthfatal
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I mus assume that this post is intended to be indicative of how you "know" that Catholicism is the "One True Faith".

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Hello,

First is the knowledge that there is a God. There is a higher being, a prime mover, a divine watchmaker (however you want to view it) and to this being we give the name God.
Sorry, but faith is not the same thing as knowledge. There is no "divine watchmaker", there is no "God". If you claim otherwise you must provide good evidence for it if you want anyone to believe you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Then, I can see that this God is one, that the true faith must be monotheistic.
This is known as the argument from experience. You have experienced that there is such thing as a monotheistic god. Such experiences are subjective and inadmissible as evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
The true faith must be Christian - Jesus as God (the Second Person of the Trinity).
You have just argued that your monotheistic religion is actually a polytheism... perhaps this argument needs a lot more explication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
I know most of you are going - explain, explain more! If you want to discuss these thoughts (and many others) in much more detail, you can go to one of these forums for complete discussions:


Catholic Answers Forums


Orthodox Christianity Forums
The discussion is here. I could just as easily ask you to post your beliefs at http://richarddawkins.net/forum/ , but I don't expect you to take your views to a place that is openly hostile to them, why do you expect that of us (I imagine this applies to theist non-catholics as well)?

Last edited by truthfatal; 12-09-2007 at 12:55 PM. Reason: A little clarification was in order.
 
Old 12-09-2007, 01:24 PM   #317
JMJ_coder
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
Where's the biblical backing for that? Faith can't be ordained.
Paul himself (and he is undoubtedly the one who did the most to
proselytise the nations) was not an ordained apostle.
Of course Paul was an Apostle and received ordination.

Also, the Apostolic Churches are not Bible only Churches. There is also Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.

But the idea of Apostolic Succession is very much rooted in Sacred Scriptures. For starters, take a look in the Old Testament at the Levitical Priesthood.

Then look in the New Testament where Christ decrees that His ordained leaders shall share in His ministry and authority - Matthew 10:1; 10: 40; 16:18-19; 18:18; Luke 10:16-19; 22:29-30; John 5:30; 7:16-17; 8:28; (these verses from John show that it is not by man, but through the authority of God that Jesus and His Apostles have a share in that authority)16:13-15; 17:18; 20:21; Acts 20:28; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:25 - and others

Look at the words of Scripture that tells us that this authority is transferred via the Sacrament of Ordination - Acts 1:15-26; 6:6; 14:22; 15:22-27; 1 Timothy 3:1; 4:14; 5:22; 2 Timothy 2:2; Titus 1:5; 1 John 4:6 - and others

Look at the teaching of Scripture that God wants us to obey that apostolic authority - Acts 5:13; 15:6; 15:24; 16:4; 1 Corinthians 5:3-5; 16:22; 2 Corinthians 2:17; 3:6; 5:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; 1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 2:18; 5:5; 3 John 9 - and others.

You can go from there and look at the treasure of Sacred Tradition, the Church Fathers and Councils for much more on this subject.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
As for the offer to visit those forums - I think I'll give that
a miss :} ... that would be much like a Windows-aficionado coming
to LQ to argue about the virtues of his OS. Having a talk about
this on "neutral ground" (here on LQ) is fine, going to a dedicated
forum to argue would be a declaration of war - and of those we've
had quite enough in the history of Christendom.
The only difference is that this is NOT a religious forum - it is a computer forum.
 
Old 12-09-2007, 01:41 PM   #318
JMJ_coder
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
I mus assume that this post is intended to be indicative of how you "know" that Catholicism is the "One True Faith".


Sorry, but faith is not the same thing as knowledge. There is no "divine watchmaker", there is no "God". If you claim otherwise you must provide good evidence for it if you want anyone to believe you.
Like I said - it was a summation, not a thesis. Thus, I provide little if any proof, in either empirical evidence or philosophical or theological arguments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
This is known as the argument from experience. You have experienced that there is such thing as a monotheistic god. Such experiences are subjective and inadmissible as evidence.
No, it is an argument from interior and intuitive knowledge and through study and prayer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
You have just argued that your monotheistic religion is actually a polytheism... perhaps this argument needs a lot more explication.
And this shows you have absolutely NO understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. Not that you don't agree, but that you are ignorant of the doctrine.

Basic theology (this definition may not be enough for you to understand, but its the basic start) - Trinity is three divine Persons in one God. One in essence and undivided Trinity.

This from the Athanasian Creed is a little more explicit:

We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
The discussion is here. I could just as easily ask you to post your beliefs at http://richarddawkins.net/forum/ , but I don't expect you to take your views to a place that is openly hostile to them, why do you expect that of us (I imagine this applies to theist non-catholics as well)?
If you want to have a discussion there, we could. That is if they would tolerate such a thing. The two I linked will let you speak as long as you are courteous (i.e., no ad hominems, etc.). Some I know of won't be as tolerant and will ban anyone with a differing viewpoint, no matter how nicely they present it.
 
Old 12-09-2007, 02:27 PM   #319
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
But the idea of Apostolic Succession is very much rooted in Sacred Scriptures. For starters, take a look in the Old Testament at the Levitical Priesthood.
I wonder how many Popes or Patriarchs are of the tribe of
Levi ... I guess not that many? While the old Testament
*does* have a line of succession it's biological, not spiritual.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Then look in the New Testament where Christ decrees that His ordained leaders shall share in His ministry and authority - Matthew 10:1; 10: 40; 16:18-19; 18:18; Luke 10:16-19; 22:29-30;
All unrelated to the topic at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
John 5:30; 7:16-17; 8:28; (these verses from John show that it is not by man, but through the authority of God that Jesus and His Apostles have a share in that authority)16:13-15; 17:18; 20:21;
No mention of apostles in any of those, neither of ordination; it's
all about Jesus' self-confession. As for the powers described in
your quotes from Ch 16 onwards, they're from "the holy spirit", not
"by ordination". Chs 17 and 20 speaks of the desciples (the whole
lot, not just the "core team").

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Acts 20:28; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:25 - and others
Acts: no mention of ordination.
Eph: Apostles and prophets, no word of ordination.
Peter: lovely, but no mention of ordination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Look at the words of Scripture that tells us that this authority is transferred via the Sacrament of Ordination - Acts 1:15-26; 6:6; 14:22; 15:22-27; 1 Timothy 3:1; 4:14; 5:22; 2 Timothy 2:2; Titus 1:5; 1 John 4:6 - and others
Nuh, mate, I'm sorry ... but the things you're pulling out of the
hat don't warrant what you're trying to prove.
And for you to quote timothy 3:1 (read verse 2, too?) is almost
too funny; none of the Catholic fellows qualify, celibate and
all. "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,
vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt
to teach;"


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
You can go from there and look at the treasure of Sacred Tradition, the Church Fathers and Councils for much more on this subject.
If tradition was that important we should be something else
all together ... ;} "Roses are red-ish, violets are blue-ish,
if it wasn't for Christmas we all would be jewish..." :D


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
The only difference is that this is NOT a religious forum - it is a computer forum. ;)
Fair enough. But as I said: wandering into someone else's turf, telling
them about the wickedness of their ways ... not a good idea - and I do
not have the time to spend trying to refute wrong arguments 20
times over. ;D



Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 12-09-2007, 02:38 PM   #320
truthfatal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Hello,

Like I said - it was a summation, not a thesis. Thus, I provide little if any proof, in either empirical evidence or philosophical or theological arguments.
Yes, I know. That's my problem. you are espousing that something is true, without giving any evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
No, it is an argument from interior and intuitive knowledge and through study and prayer.
As I said. Personal experience. giving it a different name does not make it correct. Saying "I know, because I know, because I know" does not mean you are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
And this shows you have absolutely NO understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. Not that you don't agree, but that you are ignorant of the doctrine.
You are correct. I am ignorant of the doctrine. To me it appeared that you were claiming that people should worship Jesus over and above the rest of the trinity. The arguments that you provide as explanation seem to say that: "Our one God is actually comprised of three separate entities, and the proof is that we have these three separate Gods that operate under one head." That appears to me to be at the very least, really poor math. Three does not equal one. Ever.

Regardless of all of that, the Athanasian Creed does not even attempt to offer any evidence of its claims. and is therefore irrelevant.

The only thing in this particular branch of discussion that is relevant, is that you claimed to know that there is a god, and that Catholicism is the "one true faith". Anything that you post after that initial premise is irrelevant until you either prove your claim, or in the absence of proof, abandon it.

The same goes for anyone who makes the claim that something exists.
 
Old 12-09-2007, 03:34 PM   #321
ninjashoes
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not religeous, very curious about the universe and semi spiritual
 
Old 12-09-2007, 04:27 PM   #322
amosf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Then, I can see that this God is one, that the true faith must be monotheistic.

The true faith must be Christian - Jesus as God (the Second Person of the Trinity).
Christianity, and especially the catholic faith, is not monotheism, of course.

It pulls all sorts of tricks, like the trinity, to try and pretend, but it's very much polytheistic. It has the father, son, holy spirit. There are minor gods, the angels, even back from the OT. Mortals are even elevated to minor god status in the saints. The excuse is that all these are part of the one god.

Sure, there is a boss god, but then we also can point to Zues and Ra or whoever. I can just as easily say that the greek gods were all parts of the 'olympian god consortium' and call it monotheism. Sheesh.

Stop pretending and see the reality
 
Old 12-09-2007, 04:49 PM   #323
amosf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfatal View Post
You are correct. I am ignorant of the doctrine. To me it appeared that you were claiming that people should worship Jesus over and above the rest of the trinity. The arguments that you provide as explanation seem to say that: "Our one God is actually comprised of three separate entities, and the proof is that we have these three separate Gods that operate under one head." That appears to me to be at the very least, really poor math. Three does not equal one. Ever.

Regardless of all of that, the Athanasian Creed does not even attempt to offer any evidence of its claims. and is therefore irrelevant.

The only thing in this particular branch of discussion that is relevant, is that you claimed to know that there is a god, and that Catholicism is the "one true faith". Anything that you post after that initial premise is irrelevant until you either prove your claim, or in the absence of proof, abandon it.

The same goes for anyone who makes the claim that something exists.
Oops, I missed these later replies. Looks like more pretending

By definition, christians worship christ, yet acknowledge he has a (god) father and a mother. Then we still have the holy spirit and all the other god-like minor figures, angels, saints. And lets not forget Satan. Is Satan part of the trinity? This is a major independent figure with clear godly powers. There are clear similarities to Satan in other polytheistic faiths.

So please explain Satan if none of the others. He is part of the christian polytheism. He is the christian hades. Hell is the christian hades underworld. Even jesus had to suffer the temptation of hades - ah - Satan.

The reality is that christians and esp catholics DO pray to the minor god figures. They pray to mary, the saints, and all the rest. Like an Egyptian pharaoh, they are elevated to deity status.

As I say. I can just as easily say the Olympian gods are all one god by giving it a name, like the trinity.

Jehovah's Witnesses are a bit more monotheistic than most and they believe the dead are just dead and there is no hell...

But catholics. Well, I remember the teachings of a few levels of heaven and hell, but it's been a while
 
Old 12-09-2007, 05:37 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
Christianity, and especially the catholic faith, is not monotheism, of course.

It pulls all sorts of tricks, like the trinity, to try and pretend, but it's very much polytheistic. It has the father, son, holy spirit.
That's like saying that you're three people because you happen
to the child of someone, the brother of someone and the father
to someone else ... I'm always the same person, but have quite
different aspects to my Mom, my sister and my kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
There are minor gods, the angels, even back from the OT.
Angels (and that includes Stan) are merely creatures. Nothing
Godly about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
Mortals are even elevated to minor god status in the saints. The excuse is that all these are part of the one god.
I'll leave the adhortation (adoration?) of Saints and Angels up to
the Catholic chaps to defend - I have no part in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
Sure, there is a boss god, but then we also can point to Zues and Ra or whoever. I can just as easily say that the greek gods were all parts of the 'olympian god consortium' and call it monotheism. Sheesh.

Stop pretending and see the reality ;)
Ha-ha :D


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 12-10-2007, 01:17 AM   #325
alred
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>> "not religeous, very curious about the universe and semi spiritual"

i practice ancestor worship ... are there any technicality to it ... ??



.
 
Old 12-10-2007, 02:30 AM   #326
teabag_46
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Here is an article by Douglas Adams


http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/


It deals with an artificial god, and is quite good, although confusing at times!!
 
Old 12-10-2007, 03:55 AM   #327
amosf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkster View Post
Angels (and that includes Stan) are merely creatures. Nothing
Godly about them.
I don't see the difference between Satan and Hades. Why would one be a god and the other a creature.

Christians used much of the old mythology and festivals, they just redefined it to suit themselves.
 
Old 12-10-2007, 08:23 AM   #328
trickykid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amosf View Post
Christians used much of the old mythology and festivals, they just redefined it to suit themselves.
Just like christmas trees that were once condemned but now they use it as their own tradition. And Easter was a named derived from the Goddess Eostre. All religions are known to rip off from one another. They should create a patent system..
 
Old 12-10-2007, 10:45 AM   #329
brianL
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We haven't heard from any worshippers of Cthulhu yet.
 
Old 12-10-2007, 10:58 AM   #330
Simon Bridge
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Quote:
We haven't heard from any worshippers of Cthulhu yet.
That is because the Great One but sleeps; when the stars are right, then you shall hear from us. Ia Cthulhu ftagn...

Note: Cthulhu Totally Hates Unwarranted Local Human Unpleasantness...
 
  


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