The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by XavierP Disagree, that is your right as a member of LQ. But do so politely. This thread, despite it's subject matter has been mostly polite. ShaanAli is arguing from the point of view that he believes in his faith, others are not. As long as this thread remains polite, that is fine. Pro-tip: if you find yourself about to insult another member in this, or any other, thread with words like that just walk away and calm down. It's the internet, despite the various posters it really isn't serious business.

Agreed, that was just my first moment of heat, not hate.
Changed the only offensive word.

Good man.

But it's still really frustrating to have a open debate with a man running in circles, though.
May the lord Bruce Lee's shower of wisdom and peace be upon me and I could ignore it

Originally Posted by brianL Agreed. It should be banned for advocating violence and racism.

Freedom of speech/expression? Your idea sounds very much like censorship. Banning books is not a good idea, no matter what is written in them... Knowledge should be preserved, so mistakes of the past won't be repeated.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli No one has that "will" my dear friend.

You have quite a low opinion about humans, don't you? There are 6.7 billions people on the planet, so probability of you being correct is almost zero.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli If that "will" had present, there would be no poor on this earth.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
Poor people aren't brought into existence by lack of charities. Many people are responsible themselves for being poor. No matter how many charities are there, it will not fix the problem.

Originally Posted by PrinceSharma But it's still really frustrating to have a open debate with a man running in circles, though.

Well, you have two choices:

1. Use the mighty "ignore" button and live happily ever after.
2. Or keep arguing till one of you dies from the old age.

It looks like ShaanAli is going to keep dodging arguments forever, so #1 might be a better choice.

Originally Posted by PrinceSharma May the lord Bruce Lee's shower of wisdom and peace be upon me and I could ignore it

Well, you can simply calculate amount of time you already spent arguing. Sometimes it helps.

Originally Posted by SigTerm It looks like ShaanAli is going to keep dodging arguments forever, so #1 might be a better choice.

Oh yeah, days before I subscribed back just to see him in the same loop, wow.
What bothers me not his preaching straight out of his book, but lack of generic sense while giving an argument.

Oh wait, what to do with a human being who's completely willing to reject evolution, DNA, science and what not for the sake of one book. Okay I got it.

Originally Posted by brianL No, he was a right-wing extremist, politically motivated.

And his motivation was . . . . ? How is that different from a "terrorist" claiming "Islam" (true or not) as his motivation?

Which is why I love faith and at best don't give a toss about religion.

Religion was invented by man to control man. All the hatred and more hatred it has caused.
If just one person believed in god than it would be called a mental illness.
How can anyone "believe" anything that cannot be proven.[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added 08-19-11 at 02:12 PM ----------

Originally Posted by sycamorex ...if YOU ARE ABLE to pick what is right or wrong from a holy book, then why do you need the holy book in the first place? It means that the ability to tell right from wrong is in you. It doesn't come from the holy book.

The ability to tell right from wrong is within the human indeed,
but it is the human senses which cause trouble.

Example:
When a particular situation is against us, we tend to lose
our temper. At that particular moment, the common sense and the
ability to tell right from wrong goes out of the window.
Later on when we are calm, we may realize what we did was wrong
and could have been avoided. We learn by experiences.

Now, if we read thoroughly, the holy-book (where God (assuming He
exists), tells the mere mortal "how" and "why" you should
do this and that, in a particular situation), and try to "understand"
and also "test" the sayings out, practically, in our day to day life,
we might get saved from many repents.

Originally Posted by SigTerm People that can analyze their holy book will probably do just fine even without god.

Not in my opinion.
I live in a very insecure world. I feel frightened when I get
out of the house. I think of God (assuming he exists) as a
powerful Guardian, which hopefully will save me or warn me of
the dangers lying ahead, provided I follow his sayings for which
he has already given all sorts of "logics" and "reasonings".

Yes, you can say that I am selfish and plead God to be my bodyguard,
but this is all the religion is about!
People do not pray to God, selflessly. If they say that they have no
selfish motives, then be assured that they are lying.

I have 3 times been saved (by a fraction of a second) from
MAJOR accidents, I "felt" as if I was being warned (by God), that
be careful, drive next time above 65KMPH and you'll be on your
own!

The human being just wants an escape from the miseries and there
are no logics involved (from the human's side) when it comes to
strong beliefs.

Originally Posted by nigelc How can anyone "believe" anything that cannot be proven.

Axiom. Geometry is built on top of that. There are other things that cannot be proven. For example, you can't prove your to another (extremely stubborn) person, because you (and entire universe) can always be disregarded as a very convincing hallucination. Same goes to theism/atheism. AFAIK, every argument you could use in attempt to prove/disprove existence of (generic deity, not a specific one) god can be countered.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul Not in my opinion. I live in a very insecure world. I feel frightened when I get out of the house. I think of God (assuming he exists) as a powerful Guardian, which hopefully will save me or warn me of the dangers lying ahead, provided I follow his sayings for which he has already given all sorts of "logics" and "reasonings".

In my opinion, when you know that you can rely only on yourself, nobody else is going to help you, and that you're the only person responsible for consequences of your decisions, you become stronger. Religious people have plenty of ways to say "devil made me do it" or get a false hope from their faith. Anyway, this is my opinion based on my life experience. It is very unlikely to change.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul Yes, you can say that I am selfish and plead God to be my bodyguard, but this is all the religion is about!

I can understand a need for "divine protection", but I can't approve idea of being a deity's slave.
If a religion offered a noticeable result in exchange for prayers/rituals and wasn't automatically forced upon next generation I would think about it differently. As I already said, I accept an idea of a contract. If you could willingly form contract with deity (divine protection in exchange for service) - without being forced into it, that would be fine by me. I believe that human should have a right to make a choice (knowing the possible consequences), even if he decides to shoot himself in the foot (knowing it is going to hurt). A "divine contract" is compatible with that idea. Traditional religion ("god's slave") - not quite.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul I have 3 times been saved (by a fraction of a second) from MAJOR accidents, I "felt" as if I was being warned (by God), that be careful, drive next time above 65KMPH and you'll be on your own!

I'm pretty sure that many people had similar experiences, however, IMO it isn't right to think that that such "warning" could originate only from god. The first potential origin of such "warning" is your own mind ("subconsciousness"), 2nd potential origin is "6th sense" or "intuition", if you want to prove that something like that originates from god, you need some kind of evidence. And you'll have to prove that the feeling of danger hasn't originated from somewhere else. Universe is big. (IMO) if something like a god exists, it is unlikely that it would bother saving a single human.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul The human being just wants an escape from the miseries and there are no logics involved (from the human's side) when it comes to strong beliefs.

Which is why I think that atheists/agnostics have it tough compared theists/believers. However, lying to yourself isn't a good idea (religion needs proof) - it doesn't solve anything. I can't follow something I'm not completely certain about, because I don't want to lie to myself. I guess that's character trait.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul The ability to tell right from wrong is within the human indeed, but it is the human senses which cause trouble. Example: When a particular situation is against us, we tend to lose our temper. At that particular moment, the common sense and the ability to tell right from wrong goes out of the window. Later on when we are calm, we may realize what we did was wrong and could have been avoided. We learn by experiences. Now, if we read thoroughly, the holy-book (where God (assuming He exists), tells the mere mortal "how" and "why" you should do this and that, in a particular situation), and try to "understand" and also "test" the sayings out, practically, in our day to day life, we might get saved from many repents.

I guess it depends on a personality. It's true. Some people may indeed benefit from such a book explaining
their behaviour. If that's the case though, I'd be more inclined to look at some relevant human psychology book to find answers/guidance.
They tend to be more reliable. Just my 2[insert currency]

Originally Posted by sycamorex [insert currency]

dinar.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Axiom. Geometry is built on top of that. There are other things that cannot be proven.

Not quite. Each individual axiom in geometry can be "proven" using others, and the theorems arising from them. One cannot, however, challenge all geometric axioms simultaneously, however, you are right about that, without accepting some as true. So in that sense, yes, geometry does require "faith" at one point or another. In religion, though, some postulates (e.g., "God exists") cannot be proven using others, so there is a fundamental difference.

Originally Posted by moxieman99 Each individual axiom in geometry can be "proven" using others, and the theorems arising from them.

This statement requires proof.
As far as I know, axioms cannot be proven by definition.

Originally Posted by SigTerm In my opinion, when you know that you can rely only on yourself, nobody else is going to help you, and that you're the only person responsible for consequences of your decisions, you become stronger.

Yes, I am the one responsible for my nearly life taking accident.
But that "nearly" word starts "doubts". I couldn't find any apparent reasons
for my survival. And accident is not the only example I can give, my father
says there are cases where a "strong" prayer has many times saved him from the
boomerang situations.

Originally Posted by SigTerm but I can't approve idea of being a deity's slave.

I said before too, not all religions have the concept of masters and
slaves relationship. In a master-slave kind of relation, God (assuming
he exists and is a master) is not supposed to explain "why" and "how",
for the obvious reasons.

A God which thinks of himself as a Master and his devotees as slaves,
is not worth my time at all. I would prefer to die rather than being
saved by a proudy narrow minded God.

Originally Posted by SigTerm and wasn't automatically forced upon next generation I would think about it differently.

Who is forcing what?
If God (assuming he exists) tries to give all sorts of reasons etc.
for his sayings, will that be called forcing too?

Originally Posted by SigTerm I'm pretty sure that many people had similar experiences, however, IMO it isn't right to think that that such "warning" could originate only from god. The first potential origin of such "warning" is your own mind ("subconsciousness"), 2nd potential origin is "6th sense" or "intuition",

Believers would say that it is God (assuming he exists) who made their
brain give them the warning.
As I said before too, religion is all about BELIEFS, only.

Originally Posted by SigTerm if you want to prove that something like that originates from god, you need some kind of evidence. And you'll have to prove that the feeling of danger hasn't originated from somewhere else.

No need to tell me that.
I am not here for PROVING God or proving that something originates
from God. I wrote all my statements above [ASSUMING] God exists.
Again, I repeat religion is all about beliefs and a mental state.

Well, you can also say that believers don't want to study science
"extensively" for the fear of their "beliefs" being shaken?
Or
because they simply don't care?

Originally Posted by SigTerm It is very unlikely to change.

I have no clue why you keep on repeating in many threads in /General,
that your opinion is not going to change? Is anyone here trying to change
your opinion?
AFAI can understand, this thread is about fun/entertaining discussions,
not about changing opinions of random strangers.

Originally Posted by sycamorex I guess it depends on a personality. It's true. Some people may indeed benefit from such a book explaining their behaviour. If that's the case though, I'd be more inclined to look at some relevant human psychology book to find answers/guidance. They tend to be more reliable. Just my 2[insert currency]

Perhaps you forgot that we were talking about holy books assuming
the God exists. Holy books and God go hand in hand. If there is no God
then there is no question of a book being holy.

and even then, I would say, that what is reliable and what is not, can
only be judged by reading the book (holy or not) and then deciding (for
yourself) according to your common sense and practical life experiences,
whether you should follow the holy book or a normal book.
Talking in generic sense w.r.t holy books (without analyzing them) is not
too helpful, I think.

Perhaps you forgot that we were talking about holy books assuming the God exists. Holy books and God go hand in hand. If there is no God then there is no question of a book being holy.

Aren't Holy books written by men?