The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by ShaanAli {...}If you break law, probably GOD will forgive you if you seek his forgiveness. But your country police will not. So take care.{...}

Where is logic in this?
1.Human laws are not perfect - most of them are made to support humans with need of power and money itself. God should be above that right according to holy books? Because he is allmighty, allpowerfull etc. basically above human level so how come God can't give perfect laws?
2.Probably??? Just probably? Humans have this option "I'll think about it." According to books God set strict universal rules for all humans(another wierd stuff) and according to them there should not be any "maybe" factor. If you did break those rules(especially if you are informed of them) - you get punished, period - just like books say - will go to hell not maybe yes maybe no. Again stop trip in own belief system.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Do you guys really think A crime like Rape will be allowed in a religion like Islam, where its been ordered for man to lower his gaze when he sees any other women.

Ok, so let's forget for the moment about the intact words of god (ie. Quran). Let's concentrate on modern views as quoted by the website linked by Anisha. You also didn't seem to have problems with them - at least that's what you said.

[It is] un-Islamic to stop husbands from having sex with their wives even if they were doing so without their consent.[1] Dr Aamir Liaqat Hussain, Pakistan's minister of state for religious affairs

A husband has the right to be intimate with his wife and the wife must obey. If the wife refuses, then the rule of 'nusyuz' (disobedient) applies and the husband is not required to provide financial assistance to her.[2] Malaysia's Perak state mufti Harussani Zakaria

I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned it's a rape.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Quran also says: Before you pass on any information further, verify that first.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I have read several "american and british" articles where it was proved that it was insiders job for 9/11. I have not inquired myself, I can not say confidently who did that. Nor you !!

* sigh

BTW, ShaanAli, what everyone wants you to say is that those people are either a) wrong, or b) being deliberately taken out of context. I would expect the same of any Catholic being asked about Bill Donohue's defense of the inter-general institutionalized mass-rape committed by the Catholic Church.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli "Conclusion: Books are not that important". I said break the rules and see the result.

Breaking the rules is not related to importance of books. You can get consequences for breaking unspoken rule and you can get no consequences for breaking written rule. Writing it down prolongs its existence, but does not enforce it.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli If you break law, probably GOD will forgive you if you seek his forgiveness. But your country police will not.

SO, it is okay to break the law as long as you seek forgiveness. "Great".

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Find some other way.

Sure. Put entire planet into permanent sleep, and never allow people to wake up. Not killing. Result will be identical - no people, no conflicts. It'll take longer, though.

You also avoided issue of two islamic verses mentioned before.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I have not inquired myself, I can not say confidently who did that. Al-Qaida was born by American Govt. You should know the history.

Those two statements contradict each other.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli To know any religion, read the scripts, dont look at their followers. Followers are following or not. How you know? This applies to any religion.

That's incorrect. If you happen to acquire different perception of faith compared to majority, majority will claim that you're a heretic and they will ostracize you.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli First of all: you see what you are shown. I have read several "american and british" articles where it was proved that it was insiders job for 9/11. I have not inquired myself, I can not say confidently who did that.

What has been proved is quite the opposite, but some people don't care about things like evidence, or if they do, they carefully select only those bits of evidence that appear to support their foregone conclusions. But that's another topic for another time.

But what is on topic is that if you're going to use 9/11 truther nonsense as a defense of your religion, you're looking in the wrong direction.

Originally Posted by dugan Top Saudi cleric wants bombers `burned in hell' I actually suspect that there are many other examples, but they're not reaching us because of the Western media's selection filter.

That condemnation was probably because the bombings were in Saudi Arabia.

Originally Posted by SL00b {...}if you're going to use 9/11 truther nonsense as a defense of your religion, you're looking in the wrong direction.

Yes + 9/11 can easily be used as a offense to religious people. Some jerks believed in something + did slaughtered act of blowing towers up WITH human beeings inside. Tell this crap that religious people(yes terrorists are religious people aswell they just believe in something different) care about people to those people who died or lost their family members because of that accident. Also tell those people who fell out of those towers and died hitting ground or those who got burried by tower or died from collission other consequence stuff that science facts lie.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I am not preaching my dear friend. While answering you guys questions, actually I am learning. Infact I am learning about other religions also. Did you know in one of your holy vedas, Prophet Jesus and Mohammed is mentioned?

I said what I saw here, dear.
And I don't at all think I needed to mention what's written in the holy books of my belief system unless asked or questioned.


And yeah, I for once appreciate your faith to actually defend your system against our questions though by any mean. I really do.
Regards.

Originally Posted by brianL I can't recall any strong condemnation by any muslim of any atrocity carried out by any suicide bomber. After 9/11, on the TV news, I saw crowds of them cheering, singing, and dancing with joy in several Islamic countries. So why should we believe you, rather than what we've seen and read about?

For the first time in this thread I will have to agree with Mr. Ali on what he said below, world will see what it'd be shown.

As Indians, me Hindu guy and my Muslim gf and friends all were ashamed, disgusted and angry on the same level on 26/11/2008 Mumbai attacks from the neighborhood country which is an Islamic country. The Islamic communities in Mumbai even refused to provide the graveyards for the killed attackers(morons!) because they know they've been spoiling their religion's name and teachings and showing a totally different face of Jehaad(which is not actually violence by any mean in Islam!) to the world since years. But that highly depends on the region, way of thinking and sense of patriotism. Not everywhere it happened and you saw what the media chose to.

Same for what happened a few days before in Mumbai and same for what happened on 9/11.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli First of all: you see what you are shown.

Recently remembered something i thought about when i was little child from this:

Originally Posted by flamelord {...}God created Adam and Eve, from whom all mankind is descended.{...}

How did it happen? Ok Adam and Eve was born from God then they "made love" and had children but how the next generation was made? I can only think of one way - blood sin. According to local church it still is sin to sleep with brother|sister or parents|kids..where is logic here? I find this even less normal than Eve taking apple after conversation with snake. Btw where did snake come from and why it was evil and how come it could speak to humans? God didn't thought about this too? What is this? God can create working planet system, nature but can't create Garden of Eden correctly..

Originally Posted by ShaanAli sorry I didn't get your point here. Whats wrong in those verses? Can you plz explain?

What I have understood from these verses is:
Allah (which YOU claim is responsible for making Prophet Mohamed write Quran), is seen telling his followers that they can have sex slaves. HE is also seen to be saying, that the women who are the war prisoners, are allowed to be raped, since now they are your slaves. And nowhere has YOUR God mentioned, in those verses, that you should seek the due permission (for sex) from those women, before having sex with them.

So, all this while you have been advocating a God who permits Rape?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Before you reach to any conclusion understand the context when that verse was revealed. Slavery was very common during that time and women after war used to become public property...........Although slavery was not outright condemned, Muslims argue that this is because slavery was a vital part of the world during the time of the revelation

Does this mean that Quran was written by a normal human being and not by some God?

If you say yes, then I agree that, at that time slavery was a common practice and that can be the reason for the common man Prophet, to write in Quran whatever was commonly practiced at that time.
And because Prophet was NOT influenced by your God, he couldn't use his wits (gifted by God) to think ahead of time?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli and it would be difficult for society to end it immediately.

Too difficult for your God who is a creator of this universe, to insert some "common sense" in the brains of those people (so that they IMMEDIATELY stop all kinds of slavery)?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Rules should have logic. If there is logic, person should adhere that.

Indeed, and what is the logic behind a man being allowed to marry five women at a time and women not been given the same rights?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Did you know in one of your holy vedas, Prophet Jesus and Mohammed is mentioned?

No, I have NOT read the Vedas, so can't debate what is written there and what is not.

You are expected to present citations to support your claims.

BTW, I just searched Google with the keywords: "prophet mohammed vedas", the resultant first ten sites were Islamic.

Let me see if this is correct - Mohammed in Vedas.... nopes. The vedas were written a long long time before Mohamed. But then there is always someone who will misinterpret things and claim that this a refrence to Mohamed or Jesus. If you have *specifics* please let me know. Do you know Jesus is mentioned in the Koran? With some manipulations I can make Lord Ram appear in Koran too?
Tell me one thing - Jesus was born Jewish what was Mohamed born as? Can you tell me one reason why the Koran was given to Mohamed only?
Take my adivse, in techincal forums like these you cannot defend religion though we respect your choice to have and follow one. This is where science and religion clash - and science _always_ wins.

Originally Posted by SilverBack Take my adivse, in techincal forums like these you cannot defend religion though we respect your choice to have and follow one. This is where science and religion clash - and science _always_ wins.

That is interesting. By "this is where", do you mean " on technical forums"? Because that would imply that the truth claims of science (and by extension of religion) are context bound. In other words, they would be true within their own realm only and therefore absolutely useless outside it. Exactly my thought but I wonder whether many would agree.

Originally Posted by Arcane Recently remembered something i thought about when i was little child from this: How did it happen? Ok Adam and Eve was born from God then they "made love" and had children but how the next generation was made? I can only think of one way - blood sin. According to local church it still is sin to sleep with brother|sister or parents|kids..where is logic here?

There's plenty where that came from. Lot's daughters get him drunk and then have their way with him when he has passed out, yet this is the family that was saved from Sodom and Gomorrah.

Originally Posted by jay73 That is interesting. By "this is where", do you mean " on technical forums"? Because that would imply that the truth claims of science (and by extension of religion) are context bound. In other words, they would be true within their own realm only and therefore absolutely useless outside it. Exactly my thought but I wonder whether many would agree.

I think what he's trying to say is that the general audience here is heavily composed of engineers by trade, such people are going to be better educated in the sciences than your usual audience, and given the assertion that "science always wins," it won't end well.

In other forums, the audience will probably be less prepared to argue solid scientific facts against religious dogma.