The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by -demo- Having said this, religion itself is not about gods, goddesses or a central being, it's about living in a humane way...

Agree....

How that being said, this whole "god" can create and nature can't bull crap tells me that ShaanAli has never witnessed a birth of something, has never took a seed from a plant and grew an entire plant from that seed... The sun, rain, air and the soil make it grow, gods on the other hand can not. We know how each of these work and can replicate all of them, a plant knows how to clean the air by itself, nothing teaches it, but it does it, because the clean air is a by-product of how that plant actually survives, but if plant had a consciousness it wouldn't know it was producing clean air in the first place. My point is not everything has to be taught to a being, plant, human, animal... doesn't matter, it's called cause and effect and that's how 100% of what we know and understand was found, if "god" said let there be light.. well we know the effect, but what made "god" do it in the first place? I mean, what was the cause of such an event?

I think our discussion is coming to is nature got created by itself, through evolution OR there is someone behind it.

Another questions for "god" as you believe him to be, if he/she/it does not play by the same rules, then how does time work for such a being? I mean when does time slow down or speed up for them? Is there a time? This is one of the reasons why I do not follow a god... because everything dies sooner or later, nothing and I mean nothing, not even this very universe can last forever, eventually this universe will either expand so far it will start to tear itself a part or it will begin to contract and squeeze everything into a single atom again and wait for the next big bang. Either way, nothing that can effect us will out live the universe. So with that in mind, how can there be a god in the first place?

Nature, universe, big bang, born, death, soul, body... all these are the attributes we know, we see, we feel. Just think is not possible they will be applicable only to us? GOD could be beyond all these. GOD dont need eyes to see, HE dont need brain to think, HE dont need hand to hold... same way HE dont have to die or born.... We know what we see or what our brain allow us to imagine. few years before no human even could imagine to be on moon. There could be something which we can not even imagine now. GOD will be beyond all these. If you create a robot and give some intelligent. Wont that robot will behave or able to think what you allowed him to do?

Also ShaanAli, I can see by your posts you are a very proud and religious man, but you mention history, well the problem with religion is, it has a nasty history, even mine, science however has a less tainted history, The entire Christian religion was based off my faith, so my faith in superior beings has weathered away, why would a "god" try to remodel a pagan religion (which according to the 10 commandments is evil) and claim it as another, this my friend does not sound like someone all knowing and mighty, it sounds like a what a group of humans would do. So then the word of "god" is now tainted with the blood of women, men and children, convert or die... interesting is it not?

Yes, I am proud of my religion. because I am not able to find any mistake, wrong teaching in this. Every religion say dont lie, dont hurt anyone, help others.... but this religion goes further. It made mandatory to do several things. So that human behave like a human. GOD can never ask to kill innocent people for any reason. Quran says: Killing an innocent human being is same as killing entire humankind. And Saving single human being same as saving entire humankind.

ShaanAli also mentioned something that caught my eye... You were referring to god as light?

No my dear friend. I can never compare GOD to light. Infact Quran says, GOD is something which is incomparable to "anything". Light is one of HIS blessings to us like many others.

I'm sorry for the novel guys but some things needed to be said, ShaanAli has a huge amount of faith, and good for him. But it doesn't mean what he believes is true, or what I believe for that matter, because in the end, it is all preference, until we can fully explain how every event occurs with just numbers.

Thats why we are here to discuss each other views. We are not against each other. We are human beings, we should help each other and live life peacefully.

Originally Posted by Arcane If religion would be invented to protect humanity side in humans then it would be great but no..they want control and money and ignore human real needs.. Science is honest religion not and yes they hide too much as much they can despite they claim that they have nothing to hide. Ironic isn't it?

Differentiate between religion to followers. Is any religion on this earth says to its followers go and do wrong business? If followers are bad, dont blame to religion.

My first point is now made for me.

In roughly an hour three people went on flailing defensive rants and defended themselves from my logic by snipping, rearranging, misquoting, and misusing it. None of you knows any of those things because you haven't proven them (unless you have faith with no scientific basis, that is). Call me when you sink your fingers in hot oil.

May the light of faith and the joy of salvation one day touch on every single person in this thread. I am through with it.

viel Gluck,

J

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I know about your religion also. Sorry to say I can not accept something which has plenty of flaws, stories all against nature.

You talk about "stories" in other's religions and then say the following yourself?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli But they wrote what Allah wanted them to write.

What proof is there that it was Allah who made Prophet Mohamed write Quran? If it was Prophet who wrote Quran, it is very much possible that he made it up himself just to gain some publicity!

And nowhere am I claiming that whatever is written in Vedas and Ramayana is 100% true or can be proved someway.

Originally Posted by litlmary defended themselves from my logic by snipping, rearranging, misquoting, and misusing it.

Oh, I quite disagree. It looks to me like the people who responded understood what you wrote perfectly.

If want to discuss this point then feel free to post clarifications.

Originally Posted by litlmary My first point is now made for me. In roughly an hour three people went on flailing defensive rants and defended themselves from my logic by snipping, rearranging, misquoting, and misusing it. None of you knows any of those things because you haven't proven them (unless you have faith with no scientific basis, that is). Call me when you sink your fingers in hot oil. May the light of faith and the joy of salvation on day touch on every single person in this thread. I am through with it. viel Gluck, J

What logic? Your first post in here said atheists are afraid to believe (straw man), restated Pascal's Wager (false dichotomy), and then a personal experience (anecdotal evidence). In other words, fallacy, fallacy, fallacy.

And then you went into full-on troll mode from there.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I am not asking anyone to believe. I am suggesting to read the scripture, what I believe is the best. (I believe because I have idea about others.) Quran is not only for muslims, its for all humankind. I said read scriptures, dont look followers. Is that a bad advice?

At least you accepted you have no idea about others.
Then why the conclusion that your thing is the BEST? Stop iterating that. Learn about other things too. And about Quran being for human kind, by that means every holy book is for everybody. We know that because we KNOW that, you holy man.

You may (or may not) be pleasantly amused to know I have a tiny version of Quran with me gifted by the ladylove and I respect every bit of it. What say? Come out of your circle and see things with more insight. I'm flexible not an enforcer.

Bud, you're running in circles.Again the way you're replying it's obvious to almost everybody here you're just another religious person trying to prove his point referring one thing again and again.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Dont be so sure, if you dont know. If you say "who wrote", yes it was written by human beings not by GOD. But they wrote what Allah wanted them to write. Quran was revealed to Phrophet muhammed in bit and pieces for over 23 years. His companion used to write down.

Allah wanted them to write, who says, the BOOK...again?
So all the Holy books have been written like this? Who's the God then? Give your brain a break.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli According to Wikipedia (in millions): Christianity 2,000–2,200 Islam 1,570–1,650 Hinduism 828–1,000

What I was referring to is somewhere you said this, after foul mouthing your false opinion calling something the Two BIG religions But of course your closed mind will not let you get this simple thing, see below -

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I am not referring ancient world... In todays world Christianity and Islaam are two major religions, and both believe in one GOD.

Does that make your thing the BEST? What about the ancient times? What about before that?
Why not to refer ancient times?
And don't let me or anyone else get started about the forceful conversions all across the world since centuries, if you want to talk about numbers.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I know about your religion also. Sorry to say I can not accept something which has plenty of flaws, stories all against nature. If you have read any of your Vedas, probably we can discuss the similarities. Yes, there are lot.

Didn't you just say you have know idea about others? make up your mind bud Or stop making such comments. I'd repeat, come up with generic arguments, though you are totally free to spit on others like you just did.

And who's telling you to accept them? Nowhere did any, except YOU who is trying to make everybody's believe that your 'thing' is the BEST, eh.

Don't try to put words in my mouth which I did not even say. You're already believing what you were made to after you were born.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Quran is intact from last 1400 years. Its a fact.

For you. Not for all.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Dont just keep them in your system, Read them. Understand them from your friends.

Thanks for the advice but how do you even know that I have read them or not. I'm not at all pushed in my system to do this.
I can understand your state of mind, these arguments generally come up when you don't have anything interesting or constructive to say.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I hope you are clear now what I want. I am not imposing anything to anyone. We are in general forum. everyone has its own view. We are all human being. Its our duty to help each other. I believe Quran is the book, should be read by everyone. Some may be against my suggestion "why should I read. I follow different religion. I have mine. Why should I read yours. OR I dont believe in these holy books. They are crap." I am fine with that.

Even though I don't believe that doesn't mean I'd say your thing is wrong, neither anywhere did I say, nor will I.

It's just unacceptable to me and a whole lot of others that you keep pushing it is the BEST because you believe it is the best. Stop pushing.

AND

Every open minded person is clear now what you KNOW and what you WANT. Though I appreciate your faith, I couldn't digest and will not ever what you think is the BEST without having any knowledge outside your circle.

And though somebody had already mentioned that, It's almost foolish to reply a blind folded person like you irrespective of what you believe. That should be clear to you.

Regards.


EDIT : Damn, I'm a really slow-typer.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Thats why we are here to discuss each other views. We are not against each other. We are human beings, we should help each other and live life peacefully.

I just wanted to highlight this statement, because we've had a lot of idea exchange in here about a contentious subject in which we both strongly disagree. Here's something in which we strongly agree, and I think that's why this conversation has been a fairly good one... most of the people involved have been able to separate the ideas from the people, and just discuss the ideas.

If only this were a more common trait.

Originally Posted by litlmary My first point is now made for me.{...}

Which is...? Can't answer then don't start talking like you have answer..

{...}In roughly an hour three people went on flailing defensive rants and defended themselves from my logic by snipping, rearranging, misquoting, and misusing it. None of you knows any of those things because you haven't proven them (unless you have faith with no scientific basis, that is).

Wrong..it is called net etiquette and common sence. Everyone just replies to certain aspects of your post without quoting whole text which will be massive text and will just be pain to view.

{...}Call me when you sink your fingers in hot oil.{...}

Stop acting like you're chosen one. Plenty others have been in similar situations like you including myself. But you are right about one thing - we will know real truth only when we will face it - difference is - we know that our belief may be wrong but believers ignore anything and trip easy in their own belief system.

Originally Posted by litlmary My choice to be faithful ensures that I will be fine when I check out, even if I am wrong (I'm not).

It doesn't. If you selected wrong religion and there is a god, then you will not be okay when you "check out", but you'll end up in same place as "unbelievers". You have same chances as "unfaithful" - 100% / total_number_of_religions_and_faiths , which is somewhere around 0.13% (it is said there are roughly 730 established religions).

Originally Posted by litlmary Faithless people will use any knuckleheaded argument to try to shoot down people who are content and secure in their faith!

I'd recommend to keep discussions polite, unless you want to start "final pillowfight" that gets all religion-related threads closed.

Originally Posted by litlmary You soulless goons will try anything.

And how do you know that you are not a soulless goon?

Originally Posted by litlmary Think of it this way: A 400 degree pan of cooking oil will burn your finger if you dip it in there, and you believe this because someone told you so.

You can try actually doing it, and see what happens. Doesn't work this way with religion.

Originally Posted by litlmary YOU, MR SCIENCE, ARE TAKING IT ON FAITH

Science is not opposite to religion.

Originally Posted by litlmary You BELIEVE that jumping off of a cliff will kill you because of what you have seen and been told, although you'll never know for certain unless you jump off of one.

Actually, it will *most likely* kill you. It is possible to fall down and survive, but chances are low.

2 things: the fall won't kill you, the landing will. Secondly, I believe that this thread is now retreading the same arguments that the megathread has already gone over. I believe that this means it is time for a merge (apologies to the OP, but that's what has happened).

So mote it be.

Sure the fall can kill you. The sheer fright and shock can give you a heart attack, for example.

Oh, and a note to you all: keep this polite and courteous, or I shall smite you. I haven't had a good smiting in ages.

Oh Cmon' Moderator dude, I just did 50 squats to get my adrenaline rush pumping for this thread.

On a serious note, that's a sensible warning. We know what happened in mega thread.

firm believer, Christian, Baptist Denomination