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Old 07-13-2011, 06:52 AM   #1996
Arcane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
{...}So you want to be on a safe side, huh? I'm sure if god exists he/she will really appreciate your calculated approach.
That is another wierd stuff that believers support. Then why Why WHY the 10 commandments rule exist if all they ask is belief in God? SO i can live my life as i prefer - kill people, steal from people, have love affairs etc. and all i need is belief at end to get in heaven? What kind of sence is this? Yes they do this. Priests go to prisons and ask inmates to "give up" on God to be forgiven. Also some time ago in past people could get their sins forgiven by buying forgiveness coupons or talons or w/e they are called. Seriously wtf? They don't even make sence in their own logic and rules..
 
Old 07-13-2011, 06:55 AM   #1997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Two first big religions are monotheistic. Hinduism, yes. Buddhism - they reject the creator.
Hinduism monotheistic?

I'm sorry, but if thats the level of discussion you are using, replying to you is pointless. If you had of said 'some people view Hinduism as monothestic' I would have accepted it. But flat-out calling hinduism monothestic without any qualifier is misleading, at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
Which two "first big religions" are you referring to? The oldest religions in Western culture for which we have surviving records are Egyptian and Sumerian, and both were polytheisms. Which ones do you have which are older and monotheistic?
There is less documentation for proto-Hinduism, but there is evidence around (Harappan/Indus valley civilisation).

BTW, just for fun, has anyone here seen the possible connections between Hinduism and the kaaba?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
Hell, Judaism didn't even start out life as a monotheism. An objective reading of certain parts in the Old Testament exposes Yahweh as one very jealous god among many. The very common honorific, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac," hints that he may have very likely emerged as an ordinary household god, handed down the generations.
+1. I've tried saying that in one of the other threads here on religion, I think its something that the 'religions of the book' dont like to think about at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Also some time ago in past people could get their sins forgiven by buying forgiveness coupons or talons or w/e they are called. Seriously wtf? They don't even make sence in their own logic and rules..
"Indulgences".

The church was never about logic, and rules...they only apply to those that dont have power. A position that the church hasnt been in since, ohh, about 320 C.E. at the latest.

Last edited by cascade9; 07-13-2011 at 07:01 AM.
 
Old 07-13-2011, 07:04 AM   #1998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
Hinduism monotheistic?

I'm sorry, but if thats the level of discussion you are using, replying to you is pointless. If you had of said 'some people view Hinduism as monothestic' I would have accepted it. But flat-out calling hinduism monothestic without any qualifier is misleading, at best.
That is when I was forced to suggest ShaanAli a BIG reality check.
He seems blinded by "HIS" faith in "HIS" system, IMHO.

Quote:
There is less documentation for proto-Hinduism, but there is evidence around (Harappan/Indus valley civilisation).
BTW, just for fun, has anyone here seen the possible connections between Hinduism and the kaaba?
And yeah about Kaaba and Hinduism connection, there's hell load of debates since years and it's almost another topic coming under the knife of conspiracy.

Regards.
 
Old 07-13-2011, 08:02 AM   #1999
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Ok guys. Here is something that can actually be true. What if God is actually rewritten description of Nature(not tree type nature "green people" activists fight for or Earth limited nature but the whole Nature that includes all living and unliving stuff as whole) to serve as tool to control crowds? Think about it..most of stuff believers claim to be true actually is happening in reality when doing analysis of Nature. Nature applies same set of rules and laws and freedom for everyone no matter who you are, what you believe in, what you do and doesn't punish you as long as you don't go against laws itself like jump from high place and go splat on ground thinking "Screw you, gravity law!". You may argue? How come then people in Africa suffer hunger? Think again - they suffer not because of Nature attitude but human Society laws - they are poor without money. Also even though you could say it forces some stuff on you but you forget about important detail - nature is fair, honest and without it you would't be able to exist in first place because it supplies you with needed support and laws to exist. Can't deny it right unlike imaginary lord? That could be the case why believers say God is around us - because Nature is around us - can't deny it and can proove it at same time. Believers say God is neutral and above human level - guess what? Again same thing applies to Nature - it doesn't sort out creatures or stuff and is actually above human level. They say God is perfect. Look again - so does Nature. Yes you will say what about people who born invalids or with some problems or how come then people can be sick and stuff? Think again. In your point of view it is wrong and mistake but who said Nature didn't want that to happen in this way? Maybe Nature needs different stuff around on purpose and needs anti stuff in case something goes wrong. As for perfection - when did you last time "crashed" or malfunctioned for no explanation reason or bug or when did Earth stop spin for no reasonable explanation? Just think about it - most people in society or crowd need some sort of leader so smart people decided to give it to them by writing holy books with description about some allmighty God that acts same like human for make-believe effect that we are it's children and it is our leader. Btw it might be illusion but it is mentioned by people when you will interact with truth you will feel special feeling and for some reason i get this stuff when thinking about this..maybe just false alarm but at least not lies.

Last edited by Arcane; 07-13-2011 at 08:12 AM. Reason: sometimes questions are more important than answers
 
Old 07-13-2011, 08:24 AM   #2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
Then don't refer to them as the "first big religions," because you're dead wrong.
Sorry I meant here, number of followers wise.
 
Old 07-13-2011, 08:27 AM   #2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Can you proove it? Maybe people think it was Easter bunny or Santa Clauss..you can't deny it because your arguments against your God version are same like theirs - blind faith. If something is|is not true just because someone believes in it you just got busted in own logic.
If you are looking for scientific proof, sorry. I can not. Probably no one can.
 
Old 07-13-2011, 08:30 AM   #2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
Just a little correction - evidence in general shouldn't be the subject of belief or disbelief. If evidence NEEDS to be believed then it's no evidence at all.
When we talk about proof, we're talking about establishing some degree of certainty about something. Scientific knowledge is based on repeated observations, but scientific knowledge is only one kind of knowledge. Other kinds include historical knowledge, philosophical knowledge, moral knowledge and personal knowledge. These types of knowledge lie outside the bounds of scientific knowledge.

For example, take historical knowledge. Can you prove that King Henry the Eighth existed? Using the scientific approach of observation and repeatable experiments, impossible! But using historical methods, it is certain that he existed beyond a reasonable doubt. This phrase is the key. While not one person living today has ever seen King Henry the Eighth, we know he existed beyond a reasonable doubt. This is why in law courts, a jury must be convinced of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So, when we look to prove whether God exists today, a scientific approach will not work. The amount of proof needed is enough so that we can say: "God exists beyond a reasonable doubt".
 
Old 07-13-2011, 08:35 AM   #2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
{...}scientific knowledge is only one kind of knowledge. Other kinds include historical knowledge, philosophical knowledge, moral knowledge and personal knowledge. These types of knowledge lie outside the bounds of scientific knowledge.{...}
Wrong..they have same operating base - facts and same type process of getting to truth. It is not approach that "we will now think about something and it will automatically be true because it can be true if we consider humans don't create truth.".
 
Old 07-13-2011, 08:44 AM   #2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaanAli
Agree science can do amazing, but can it produce a life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
Yes, it can.
Bingo !!!! I dint know that....
 
Old 07-13-2011, 08:58 AM   #2005
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Bingo !!!! I dint know that....
You seem to not know plenty of stuff that is going around IRL..ever heard for example of cloned(it means science created it) sheep Dolly?
 
Old 07-13-2011, 09:59 AM   #2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane
Quote:
Originally Posted by LitlMary
{...}I was in a swimming accident a few days ago and came so close to drowning that I saw my life pass before my eyes.{...}
Forgot mention that science has explanation for this as well...
The name is appropriate.

Faithless people will use any knuckleheaded argument to try to shoot down people who are content and secure in their faith!

Seeing my life pass was not proof of faith or God and I never said it was! It was proof that I nearly died!

You soulless goons will try anything.

Think of it this way: A 400 degree pan of cooking oil will burn your finger if you dip it in there, and you believe this because someone told you so. You can use all of the thermometers, test instruments, uncooked french fries, or whatever you want to establish its danger, but you will be trusting those the same as you trust the person who told you. YOU, MR SCIENCE, ARE TAKING IT ON FAITH unless you actually dip your finger in there.

The same is true of the existence of your brain. X-rays, doctors, textbooks, et cetera must be taken on faith until you cut your head open and take a look (even then you still have faith in a mirror).

Closing your eyes and backing away does not make the keyboard in front of you nonexistent because you can't see it or touch it. You have faith that it is there, even though it is invisible to you.

You BELIEVE that jumping off of a cliff will kill you because of what you have seen and been told, although you'll never know for certain unless you jump off of one.

The same is true of God. If you want irrefutable proof of his existence (or lack thereof) go jump off of a cliff and you will have your answer. You probably won't like the outcome because numerous holy books warn of the dangers of testing God. Fortunately, I don't need your answer (since you won't be able to share your result). I already have an answer without jumping off of a cliff (or drowning).

Here's another thing to consider: My choice to be faithful ensures that I will be fine when I check out, even if I am wrong (I'm not). Your choice NOT to be faithful means you have a 50/50 chance of things going very badly for you. Apparently you find it easy to have faith in a coin flip, but impossible to have faith in God. That I cannot wrap my brain around. It defies logic, science, AND faith.

Face it. You have faith in lots and lots of things that it would be too injurious or lethal to get irrefutable evidence of. God is the same way, but you choose not to have faith in Him because you think you are too intelligent. There could be lots of reasons why that you won't admit to. They are between you and God, because he exists and he looks after you, whether you believe it or not.

God bless,

J

Last edited by litlmary; 07-13-2011 at 10:05 AM.
 
Old 07-13-2011, 10:15 AM   #2007
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litlmary View Post
A 400 degree pan of cooking oil will burn your finger if you dip it in there... You can use all of the thermometers, test instruments, uncooked french fries, or whatever you want to establish its danger...
Why, yes you can. And the equivalent ways to objectively test and independently verify the claims of your religion would be?

Quote:
Your choice NOT to be faithful means you have a 50/50 chance of things going very badly for you.
You want to tell me that I have to agree with you because there's a gun being held to my head? In that case, you're going to need to use better logic to establish that the gun is there. "Sure there's no evidence, but you can't irrefutably prove anything else either!" isn't good enough. Until you succeed, I will assume that the chances of the gun existing are not 50/50 but 0/50. Personally, I doubt if you could do it without using circular reasoning (starting with the assumption that it exists), but you're invited to try.

Last edited by dugan; 07-13-2011 at 02:57 PM.
 
Old 07-13-2011, 10:27 AM   #2008
ShaanAli
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With due respect to you and your religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceSharma View Post
First, in every post, you almost are trying to make people believe in what you have been grown up believing, your holy book. Really bad advice.
I am not asking anyone to believe. I am suggesting to read the scripture, what I believe is the best. (I believe because I have idea about others.) Quran is not only for muslims, its for all humankind. I said read scriptures, dont look followers. Is that a bad advice? If you come across with something good, dont you like to share with others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceSharma View Post
Second, you seem almost unaware of generic arguments. Don't understand this point? please refer the line above this.
Topic here is "GOD exists or not". People here looking for scientific proof of that, which is not going to be possible. I am taking help of philosophical and personal knowledge, which people is dening to even listen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceSharma View Post
Third, couple of times you have mentioned that The Quran was written by some God. It was written by a Prophet, not THE God(?).
Dont be so sure, if you dont know. If you say "who wrote", yes it was written by human beings not by GOD. But they wrote what Allah wanted them to write. Quran was revealed to Phrophet muhammed in bit and pieces for over 23 years. His companion used to write down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceSharma View Post
Forth, Which two major religions are you talking about boy? You need a reality check, big time.
According to Wikipedia (in millions):

Christianity 2,0002,200
Islam 1,5701,650
Hinduism 8281,000


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceSharma View Post
fifth, after reading all you've been arguing in here so far, I still believe you're not gonna accept anything with 'open mind', not your fault, It's human nature.
I know about your religion also. Sorry to say I can not accept something which has plenty of flaws, stories all against nature.

If you have read any of your Vedas, probably we can discuss the similarities. Yes, there are lot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceSharma View Post
Sixth, I've got nothing against your or anybody's belief system (what you call religion), still I'd like to read some generic arguments based on own developed sense of thinking, conscious awareness, experiences, NOT what's written in a holy book. There's one or more than one holy books in every belief system. And they are more than 1500 years old with no proof of that, like you don't have.
Quran is intact from last 1400 years. Its a fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceSharma View Post
Seventh, I belong to a belief system Hinduism where it is considered to have one creator OM and many many many prophets or avatars AND my childhood sweetheart and now gf is a devout Muslim (beat it), BUT I refuse to blindly believe either ways. I got holy books in my system too but they don't let me KNOW.
I want to know ... like the other guy in this thread.
Dont just keep them in your system, Read them. Understand them from your friends.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceSharma View Post
Eighth, No offense dude, but again, the way you've been posting, would advise you to go back to first line.
I hope you are clear now what I want. I am not imposing anything to anyone. We are in general forum. everyone has its own view. We are all human being. Its our duty to help each other. I believe Quran is the book, should be read by everyone. Some may be against my suggestion "why should I read. I follow different religion. I have mine. Why should I read yours. OR I dont believe in these holy books. They are crap." I am fine with that.
 
Old 07-13-2011, 10:46 AM   #2009
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Originally Posted by litlmary View Post
[part about name was wierd]{...}You soulless goons will try anything{...}YOU, MR SCIENCE, ARE TAKING IT ON FAITH{...}Closing your eyes and backing away does not make the keyboard in front of you nonexistent because you can't see it or touch it. You have faith that it is there, even though it is invisible to you.{...}You BELIEVE that jumping off of a cliff will kill you because of what you have seen and been told, although you'll never know for certain unless you jump off of one.
Calm down maybe and do reality check?
- We are not soulless goons just because we don't agree to everything that some fanatic wants us to believe in
- YOU CAN'T BELIEVE IN FACTS!!! They exist! It's impossible to believe in facts because they are not abstract! They are real! It's truth!
- Closing eyes means nothing because we know it is still there - prooven facts - we saw it and touched before closing eyes
- We KNOW we will die if we jump not BELIEVE because it is how laws of physics work - knowing is not believing - get your facts straight. If you don't know that they exist try experimenting and jump from small roof so that you won't die but experience same pain you claim we believe not know in or take knife and try cutting hand or similar tests..in case you didn't noticed you have same human body like others. Believing in something won't help when it comes to laws of nature.
Quote:
{...}because he exists and he looks after you, whether you believe it or not.{...}
FFS! Ignorance is bliss..please read and understand previous posts..

Last edited by Arcane; 07-13-2011 at 11:00 AM.
 
Old 07-13-2011, 11:02 AM   #2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litlmary View Post
My choice to be faithful ensures that I will be fine when I check out, even if I am wrong (I'm not).
If I count the number of the different religions out there chances are high that you are not fine when you check out. Not because you believe, but may be because in what you believe. If there is a god out there, it may be possible that you are worshiping the wrong god. Then you loose the same way a non-believer would loose.

Quote:
Faithless people will use any knuckleheaded argument to try to shoot down people who are content and secure in their faith!
Sorry, but the only one I can see here using non-arguments to make people believe that you are right is you. I don't care about your religion at all, it is none of my business, but you are trying to convince people that believing is the only way to go.

By the way, I feel fine as soulless goon.
 
  


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