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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 168 28.82%
Deist 18 3.09%
Theist 23 3.95%
Agnostic 120 20.58%
Atheist 254 43.57%
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:15 AM   #1966
ShaanAli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post

More religions are polytheistic than montheistic.
Two first big religions are monotheistic. Hinduism, yes. Buddhism - they reject the creator.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 08:16 AM   #1967
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I do not look for new definitions of god. Argument != definition.
In order to argue about a "catalyst god," you first have to redefine the notion of god, because you've immediately thrown one of the most critical elements out the window at that point, which is intelligent design. The whole notion of god begins with, "wow, this world is amazing, who made it?" Notice the underlying assumption?

Among thousands of competing and dead views of the nature of the divine, this is the one unifying property. So again, either your catalyst god did it on purpose, knowing the eventual outcome (which makes him exponentially more complicated than his creation), or, as you propose, he's a simple being and he did it on accident.

I've studied a number of theistic religions, and I've yet to find one that deals with creation as a cosmic accident, so you're proposing a new definition of god. And the reason there aren't any religions who believe this is because once you arrive at the idea that it's a cosmic accident, you no longer need a god in the picture anywhere. The cosmic accident thesis is a direct path to atheism.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 08:24 AM   #1968
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Two first big religions are monotheistic. Hinduism, yes. Buddhism - they reject the creator.
Which two "first big religions" are you referring to? The oldest religions in Western culture for which we have surviving records are Egyptian and Sumerian, and both were polytheisms. Which ones do you have which are older and monotheistic?

Hell, Judaism didn't even start out life as a monotheism. An objective reading of certain parts in the Old Testament exposes Yahweh as one very jealous god among many. The very common honorific, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac," hints that he may have very likely emerged as an ordinary household god, handed down the generations.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 08:30 AM   #1969
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Furthermore, this portrayal of Christianity and Islam (I don't know enough about the specifics of Judaism other than what's in the OT) as monotheisms is ridiculous in the extreme. Once you introduce the idea of Satan, you no longer have one god, you have two competing ones, so you're now firmly in the territory of Zoroastrian-like dualism. Add in Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels, demons, saints, ghosts, etc., and you have a fantastical world more heavily populated with divine beings than anything that ever emerged from Greek or Norse mythologies.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 08:37 AM   #1970
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In general when we talk like that, we dont consider GOD. HE is beyond these. If there is something else who created GOD, then GOD is not GOD himself. and who created GOD will be considered as GOD and again question will raise who created him... no end to that... Definition of GOD is "He neither begets nor is born".
You're not disproving my point here, you're actually reinforcing it.

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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
I think, instead of asking If GOD exists, you should search for the question, who created everything? Probably this will lead you to understand there is GOD.
In other words, instead of asking if God exists, first assume God exists, and then from there the logical conclusion is that God exists, and round and round the circle goes. Because whenever you ask the question, "WHO created everything," you've already assumed God's existence.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 08:41 AM   #1971
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Originally Posted by Dinithion View Post
Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it inconsistent. If you remember when dealing with absolute values and squaring you always have to check the solution. Basically you have showed that a pure imaginary number doesn't consist of any real part. Or in other words. The imaginary axis and the real axis are orthogonal.
After Euler's equation had revealed yet another inconsistency in math, that the imaginary number also required special handling, the math of complex numbers was developed, driven by the need to explain away the fact that basic algebra delivers nonsense when applied to imaginary numbers.

In other words, this was yet another example to add to that list of inconsistencies I described in the essay. Math is not merely inconsistent, its development is very much driven by such inconsistencies.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 08:48 AM   #1972
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survival instincts DNA huh..... survival instincts... means millions of years before babies wont be knowing how to suck milk, how to breathe, how to cry.... i wonder how they managed to survive... think of baby got born dont know anything....how his mother make him survive..? natural survival are just theories, there is no proof...
You're conflating the conscious and the unconscious. You don't need any information on how to breathe and how to cry... your body does these things involuntarily. That's why they continue to work when you're asleep.

As for how to suck milk... duh. Didn't I just explain how babies suck amniotic fluid for 5-6 months before they're born?

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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
DNA is proved by science, it carries the information. agree... But where first DNA came from? do science have any answer for this? dont tell me it got generated by itself... Can now science create new DNA? or insert any new information to DNA? OMG science can not do that... but nature can do... great... means nature is more powerful than our current science....
DNA science is in its infancy, but the things we can already do with it are pretty amazing, you really should look into it. No, we can't match nature, but it's been in the DNA business for billions of years now, and it has countless organisms working on the project.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 09:01 AM   #1973
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
You're avoiding the question.
Your question that I did not answer is paraphrased "if one proceeds from a point in a straight line, then eventually one will return to that point".

If one proceeds in a straight line, one does not return to the start point, unless one reverses direction. If one does return to the start point, one has not followed a straight line, one has followed some kind of curve.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 09:10 AM   #1974
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Originally Posted by SL00b View Post
Which two "first big religions" are you referring to? The oldest religions in Western culture for which we have surviving records are Egyptian and Sumerian, and both were polytheisms. Which ones do you have which are older and monotheistic?

Hell, Judaism didn't even start out life as a monotheism. An objective reading of certain parts in the Old Testament exposes Yahweh as one very jealous god among many. The very common honorific, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac," hints that he may have very likely emerged as an ordinary household god, handed down the generations.
I am not referring ancient world... In todays world Christianity and Islaam are two major religions, and both believe in one GOD.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 09:11 AM   #1975
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
Please go ahead and share that proof with us. We dont have proof.{...}[and rest of your "arguments"]{...}
I and others already did shared.. Listen..what you are doing is pouring water not bringing any valid arguments into this discussion. I'm not trying to proove God doesn't exist but YOU are that it does exist precisely like Bible and other book shows. YOU have to show evidence and valid arguments about God in the way it is written in Bible or whatever book you believe in. Instead you talk around stuff and question everything other say like internet troll. Questions doesn't make your theories fact. Also you can't work with imaginary stuff when speaking about reality! Seriously how come believers don't just accept that we live in reality where you can't overcome for example gravity with will power and fly away like superman..even flying plane or birds doesn't do that they just uses other laws to overcome it not terminate it.

Last edited by Arcane; 07-12-2011 at 09:15 AM.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 09:22 AM   #1976
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Furthermore, this portrayal of Christianity and Islam (I don't know enough about the specifics of Judaism other than what's in the OT) as monotheisms is ridiculous in the extreme. Once you introduce the idea of Satan, you no longer have one god, you have two competing ones, so you're now firmly in the territory of Zoroastrian-like dualism. Add in Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels, demons, saints, ghosts, etc., and you have a fantastical world more heavily populated with divine beings than anything that ever emerged from Greek or Norse mythologies.

There is only One Creator Who created everything that exists, and that is Allah Subhanah. Thus, the Shayateen, who are amongst the jinn and humans, are also a creation of Allah. Shayateen is not a GOD or competing to GOD.

Now your question will be, why HE created Shayataan ?

Allah Subhanah created everything in the heavens and the earth, and everything that exists in between. And amongst all His creation, He gave intelligence and the free will to choose, to only two of His creations as a test: human beings and jinns.

Allah says in the Holy Quran in Chapter 67 Surah Al Mulk verse 2:He (Allah) created death and life that He may test you, to see which of you is the best in deeds.

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 51 Surah Dhariyat verse 56:I have not created the jinn and men except for this that they should worship Me alone.

Thus, the Shayaateen are not another separate creation, but rather one (from amongst the jinn and humans) become a Shaitaan himself because of his own deeds. The Shaitaan is not one entity, but rather whoever amongst the jinn and men rebels, disobeys, and challenges the authority of Allah of his own free will, becomes a Shaitaan or plural Shayateen.

Allah Subhanah created jinn and men for His worship, and He gave them the free will to choose between Right and wrong, Guidance and mis-guidance, Truth and falsehood. He made apparent the Truth and falsehood, Right and wrong, through His Guidance and His Messengers. And He also made known the result and destination of those who chose either of the two Paths. The ones who believed and did righteous deeds, would deserve His Mercy and Forgiveness and have been promised the eternal reward and pleasure of their Creator, and Paradise. And the ones who dis-believed and did evil deeds, would deserve His Wrath and Anger, and have been promised the everlasting torture of the Hell Fire.

Thus, one is not created a Shaitaan; but anyone from amongst the jinn and humans, who choose with their own free will to dis-obey and rebel against the commands of his Creator, becomes a Shaitaan. And because we are in a test for the prescribed period of this worldly life, He has allowed both, the good and the evil, to carry on following the Paths which they have chosen of their own free will. On the Day of Judgment, Allah will decide with Justice who amongst the men and jinn deserve Paradise, and who amongst them deserve Hell Fire.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 09:24 AM   #1977
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I am not referring ancient world... In todays world Christianity and Islaam are two major religions, and both believe in one GOD.
Then don't refer to them as the "first big religions," because you're dead wrong.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 09:28 AM   #1978
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
There is only One Creator Who created everything that exists, and that is Allah Subhanah.{...}
Can you proove it? Maybe people think it was Easter bunny or Santa Clauss..you can't deny it because your arguments against your God version are same like theirs - blind faith. If something is|is not true just because someone believes in it you just got busted in own logic.

Last edited by Arcane; 07-12-2011 at 09:34 AM.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 09:29 AM   #1979
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Originally Posted by ShaanAli View Post
There is only One Creator Who created everything that exists, and that is Allah Subhanah. Thus, the Shayateen, who are amongst the jinn and humans, are also a creation of Allah. Shayateen is not a GOD or competing to GOD.

Now your question will be, why HE created Shayataan ?

Allah Subhanah created everything in the heavens and the earth, and everything that exists in between. And amongst all His creation, He gave intelligence and the free will to choose, to only two of His creations as a test: human beings and jinns.

Allah says in the Holy Quran in Chapter 67 Surah Al Mulk verse 2:He (Allah) created death and life that He may test you, to see which of you is the best in deeds.

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 51 Surah Dhariyat verse 56:I have not created the jinn and men except for this that they should worship Me alone.

Thus, the Shayaateen are not another separate creation, but rather one (from amongst the jinn and humans) become a Shaitaan himself because of his own deeds. The Shaitaan is not one entity, but rather whoever amongst the jinn and men rebels, disobeys, and challenges the authority of Allah of his own free will, becomes a Shaitaan or plural Shayateen.

Allah Subhanah created jinn and men for His worship, and He gave them the free will to choose between Right and wrong, Guidance and mis-guidance, Truth and falsehood. He made apparent the Truth and falsehood, Right and wrong, through His Guidance and His Messengers. And He also made known the result and destination of those who chose either of the two Paths. The ones who believed and did righteous deeds, would deserve His Mercy and Forgiveness and have been promised the eternal reward and pleasure of their Creator, and Paradise. And the ones who dis-believed and did evil deeds, would deserve His Wrath and Anger, and have been promised the everlasting torture of the Hell Fire.

Thus, one is not created a Shaitaan; but anyone from amongst the jinn and humans, who choose with their own free will to dis-obey and rebel against the commands of his Creator, becomes a Shaitaan. And because we are in a test for the prescribed period of this worldly life, He has allowed both, the good and the evil, to carry on following the Paths which they have chosen of their own free will. On the Day of Judgment, Allah will decide with Justice who amongst the men and jinn deserve Paradise, and who amongst them deserve Hell Fire.
You're making my arguments for me again... because, sure, you have one deity above all others, but that's a common theme among polytheisms. But here are your references to Satan and djinn, transcendant beings with powers beyond those of man, so they may be lesser gods, but gods they certainly are.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 09:29 AM   #1980
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You're not disproving my point here, you're actually reinforcing it.

In other words, instead of asking if God exists, first assume God exists, and then from there the logical conclusion is that God exists, and round and round the circle goes. Because whenever you ask the question, "WHO created everything," you've already assumed God's existence.
Here the question is with you my friend, who dont believe in GOD existence. I have no doubt in GOD existence, you call it blind faith or whatever. Nature is the big proof for me to believe and holy books are the guidance to how to live life.

Since you dont believe, you need to raise question who created everything? and answer should come from you first. there on we will discuss your view of point.
 
  


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