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Old 07-04-2011, 08:17 PM   #1741
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
If got would be immaterial, why would we have this form?
IMO:
When sculptor makes a statue (of another person), statue is not alive, even if person depicted is alive. Statue has same form, but is not alive unlike original.
If sculptor makes a statue of imaginary character or a person that is "no longer with us", then until statue is completed, original "form" exists without any material body.
In other words - having same "form" does not mean having same qualities/same material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
(serious question, is that possible)?
First thing that comes to mind is hologram, so I guess it is possible. Also, photography, television, volumetric display. I.e. when you perceive an object that isn't here.

Last edited by SigTerm; 07-04-2011 at 08:19 PM.
 
Old 07-04-2011, 08:24 PM   #1742
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Before we get into this discussion, we should define what is life (versus matter).
Okay, I guess scientifically, it's organisms comprised of living cells, or a single cell.

Practically, life is having sensation of anything--that is, spirit.
 
Old 07-04-2011, 08:31 PM   #1743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
First thing that comes to mind is hologram, so I guess it is possible. Also, photography, television, volumetric display. I.e. when you perceive an object that isn't here.
Hologram, television, volumetric display: All that is more or less made of light, which can be matter. I don't know if the photography counts to the same category, but if not than a photography is a bunch of color particles on paper, so definitely matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel
God created us "in his image," with regard to his character, not substance. If we were of his character and substance, we would be gods like him, but there is one living God. We are made in his image in such ways as we desire companionship with others, we have knowledge and wisdom like him, we are skillful. And before the fall, we were pure.
I am getting somewhat confused here. If god made us in regard to his character we can't have been pure before the fall. Unless god changed his character with us after the fall. See the many slaughters and murders in the old testament that were done (or at least ordered) by god. According to the character of god that is described in the old testament god is a jealous and revengeful god that kills and tortures people only to prove his stand before his opponent, the devil (that seems to be also a creation of him).
 
Old 07-04-2011, 08:54 PM   #1744
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See the many slaughters and murders in the old testament that were done (or at least ordered) by god.
Okay, since this is going to come up again, let's deal now only with probably the most extreme instance of God appearing to us as cruel:

God incites a nation agains Israel, or against another nation, or he incites Israel. Now, he's using a nation to punish or reform another. Yes, he's using war, our nemesis. Moreover, the Bible quotes God as saying such things (e.g., to Babylon) as, "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." Psalm 137:9

Now, God didn't prescribe that they do something so cruel, as they did. God knows what is in human nature. First Israel was enslaved in Egypt. It was God's will to deliver them from Egypt, lead them out of that land, and bring them to the land he promised their forefather, Abraham. Whereever God would lead them, they would be met with violence because we have become warlike. He knows what we are like.

Again, God says, "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

First, The Amalekites were sworn enemies of Israel. They would resort to anything to bring Israel down. Hatred was so much a part of them it ran in their blood.

Second, again, God knows what's in us. We are by nature warlike (that's even to see just reading through some of these threads). God precluded Israel from a greater judgment. Had he said, "spare the children," Israel would be that much more accountable. He said to destroy them, for this reason in part.

Third, read Job.
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:00 PM   #1745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Practically, life is having sensation of anything--that is, spirit.
So plants are not alive?
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:05 PM   #1746
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Scientifically, yes. Practically, who knows whether plants haven't sensation? Many would argue they do.
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:08 PM   #1747
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(You've just reminded me to water the one potted plant we have, which I've been meaning to transplant these last three years. You've embarrassed me; I don't take too good care of it.)
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:11 PM   #1748
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Bluegospel, do not private message me. You are certainly not someone I'd care to have a discussion with, on any topic, for any reason. Should you want the definition of something, please try Google.
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:14 PM   #1749
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Understood. Well then, will someone tell me, "What is a 'troll'."
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:19 PM   #1750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
God knows what is in human nature. First Israel was enslaved in Egypt. It was God's will to deliver them from Egypt, lead them out of that land, and bring them to the land he promised their forefather, Abraham. Whereever God would lead them, they would be met with violence because we have become warlike. He knows what we are like.

...

Second, again, God knows what's in us. We are by nature warlike (that's even to see just reading through some of these threads).
Of course your god knows what is in us. He has made us that way. The only thing that happened after the fall is that mankind was knowing good and evil. He also says that now, after the fall, we are godlike, he only denies us immortality:
Genesis 3:22:
Quote:
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
So besides the immortality we (mankind) are one of them now. More than we were before the fall. (Side-question: If god doesn't want us to eat those fruits, why has he created them? Isn't that like putting a candy-jar in front of some children, disallowing them to eat those? A rather short-sighted god in my opinion)

But back on-topic: I can't remember any passage in the bible were is described that god is not made of matter. Do you know such a passage? From were are you concluding that god is immaterial?
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:21 PM   #1751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Understood. Well then, will someone tell me, "What is a 'troll'."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:26 PM   #1752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Hologram, television, volumetric display: All that is more or less made of light, which can be matter. I don't know if the photography counts to the same category, but if not than a photography is a bunch of color particles on paper, so definitely matter.
Not exactly right. Hologram, television, volumetric displays, etc are not "made of light". They interact with light or emit light in such way that it allows our brain to see original object. The object itself doesn't exist. But its image does. To be more precise a human is able to percieve image of original object even if there is no actual object.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
I am getting somewhat confused here. If god made us in regard to his character we can't have been pure before the fall.
IMO "in image of" does not mean "perfect copy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Now, he's using a nation to punish or reform another. Yes, he's using war, our nemesis.
I would not approve such decision and see no reason to support such deity even if it exists. A being of infinite power should be able to solve problems peacefully. Infinite power means infinite number of possible solutions (it is always possible to create extra planet, for example). Yet the chosen solution was slaughter.

Last edited by SigTerm; 07-04-2011 at 09:29 PM.
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:27 PM   #1753
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Side-question: If god doesn't want us to eat those fruits, why has he created them?
Wrong question. The right question? Why did we choose that tree before the one beside it, "In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Quote:
The only thing that happened after the fall is that mankind was knowing good and evil. . . More than we were before the fall.
Wrong again. Before we knew good and evil we knew only what was pure.
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:30 PM   #1754
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Boy, it sure in nice that people hate me somewhere. Before I started posting here I was beginning to think I wasn't really a Christian. Now I know I'm where I'm supposed to be. Praise God!
 
Old 07-04-2011, 09:34 PM   #1755
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Boy, it sure in nice that people hate me somewhere. Before I started posting here I was beginning to think I wasn't really a Christian. Now I know I'm where I'm supposed to be. Praise God!
I don't think that the amount of hate a person perceives as being directed at them is a very good gauge of their religion.
 
  


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