The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by sycamorex If god exists and runs this shop called the world, he's probably the most unjust manager/supervisor I've ever had (and I've had quite a few of them.) What about thousand of innocent people dying everyday (natural disasters, diseases, wars (also religious) ones)? If he can see it and does nothing, then, as some other poster mentioned recently, he either: a) is not all that powerful b) doesn't care c) he's evil. d) he doesn't exist. One thing is certain: he can't be this good and loving deity that you guys are talking about.

It is not unusual these days to view God as a sort of maid servant to humans, one that is expected to come running to serve their least wishes and then clean up dirt when their experimentation would produce bad results.

Obviously, the Maker of Earth and humans will not assume any of these roles. Humans run this shop, they're responsible.
Oh, and if you insist on God's putting matters straight, here is good news for you: he'll do so rather soon.
Just make sure to be found in the right condition when it happens or you can hardly expect much good for yourself when he does.

Originally Posted by kostya Oh, and if you insist on God's putting matters straight, here is good news for you: he'll do so rather soon.

Doesn't that imply that he doesn't make it right in the first place, so that he has to correct it?

Just make sure to be found in the right condition when it happens or you can hardly expect much good for yourself when he does.

When ever I hear that statement from a person of any religion, I suddenly have the hope that (if a god exists and comes for a big last judgement of mankind) the mentioned god is not the one the person thinks. May be, as kostya seems to be a Christian, he should think about what his condition is if god would be the islamic god, or from the pantheon of one of the polytheistic religions.

Originally Posted by kostya It is not unusual these days to view God as a sort of maid servant to humans, one that is expected to come running to serve their least wishes and then clean up dirt when their experimentation would produce bad results. Obviously, the Maker of Earth and humans will not assume any of these roles. Humans run this shop, they're responsible.

That general formulation of the problem of evil is not recent. I believe the first known formulation came from Epicurus.

Aside from these logical thought experiments on whether there could be an all good, all powerful, all knowing God, there is a practical one. Humans emotions all operate within a standard range. There's a few outliers with little to no empathy and moral intuitions, ie, psychopaths, and a few with a highly developed sense of empathy and moral intuitions, and most of us somewhere in the middle, but God could have just as easily set our baseline at any arbitrary point he wanted. If God wanted monogamy, for example, why not set out natural feelings for pair bonding much higher? It doesn't change the free will calculus if we all naturally feel less inclined to cheat that we do - we could still choose to do "evil" and go against our feelings. Evolutionary theory gives us some understanding of why we are the way that we are, but when we assume God made us that way, it's doesn't make much sense. Compare monogamy to say suicide, also a sin. Well, relatively few people, relative to cheaters, commit suicide, and many who attempt it change their minds once in the middle or after failure. Our self-preservation instinct seems to be much higher than our monogamy instinct. Why? God could have set it higher or lower, why make self-preservation so powerful and monogamy not? Or why should people naturally feel closer to their blood relatives than adopted? Or any other number of questions regarding our feelings.

Oh, and if you insist on God's putting matters straight, here is good news for you: he'll do so rather soon. Just make sure to be found in the right condition when it happens or you can hardly expect much good for yourself when he does.

If it were at all practical, I would happily bet you everything I own or will own against everything you own or will own that the second coming and the rapture do not happen by any arbitrary date of your choosing.

Originally Posted by kostya Oh, and if you insist on God's putting matters straight, here is good news for you: he'll do so rather soon.

There should be a severe punishment for failed prophecy. Are you willing to bet your life/money on it? The world certainly could use less doomsday prophets.

Originally Posted by kostya Obviously, the Maker of Earth and humans will not assume any of these roles. Humans run this shop, they're responsible. Oh, and if you insist on God's putting matters straight, here is good news for you: he'll do so rather soon.

I do agree that humans are entirely responsible for their births/lives and deaths and, contrary to what some believers say, no divine divine factor is involved here.

Originally Posted by kostya Just make sure to be found in the right condition when it happens or you can hardly expect much good for yourself when he does.

... and 'the right condition' happens to be the one YOU have been raised to believe, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by sycamorex ... and 'the right condition' happens to be the one YOU have been raised to believe, doesn't it?

Ha-ha, no no, it's got to be result of a personal research.
Well, if you feel you could do with some help, that'll be no problem. But NOT help in making personal decisions/conclusions.

Just as what I believe now is not "what I've been raised to believe". It's a result of MY personal research and study.

Originally Posted by SigTerm There should be a severe punishment for failed prophecy. Are you willing to bet your life/money on it?

Ah, here's one Bible prophecy about that day (Ezekiel 7:19):

Into the streets they will throw their very silver, and an abhorrent thing their own gold will become. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury. Their souls they will not satisfy, and their intestines they will not fill, for it has become a stumbling block causing their error.

So you see at least, apart from the fact that it's not a laughing matter, betting money makes no sense at all ...

And my life I DO bet on it, just as every sincere believer does.
Just I'm not giving any dates, for Lord Jesus gave to understand it is not for us humans to "calculate". He said we must be ready and live in expectation. That, among other things, effects the priorities we set in our personal lives.

But when you think about Noah's flood... I bet his contemporaries thought the old man was "nuts", yet one fine day...

And sycamorex, somehow I KNEW you weren't a "bot" .

Originally Posted by kostya Ah, here's one Bible prophecy about that day (Ezekiel 7:19):

And how many times in history could that possibly apply to?

But when you think about Noah's flood... I bet his contemporaries thought the old man was "nuts", yet one fine day...

Flood? What flood? Most real scholars think the story is rooted in a flood of the Black Sea, which may or may not have been particularly significant. There is absolutely no evidence of a world wide deluge.

Ha-ha, no no, it's got to be result of a personal research. Well, if you feel you could do with some help, that'll be no problem. But NOT help in making personal decisions/conclusions.

Two words. Confirmation bias.

Originally Posted by kostya Ah, here's one Bible prophecy about that day (Ezekiel 7:19):

Unfortunately, the author of this verse is dead and cannot bet money/life on it any longer. Are you willing to take his place?

Originally Posted by kostya And my life I DO bet on it, just as every sincere believer does.

You know about "Penza Hermits", right? Any other doomsday prophet is no different from them.

Set the date of apocalypse, and hire a person that will beat the crap out of you when apocalypse doesn't happen. It would also make sense to write a legal document that will force you to donate all your savings to charity when apocalypse fails to occur. At least it would teach you something. Of course, in reality, when you discover that there were no doomsday, you'll probably come up with some stupid excuse as all doomsday prophets do.

There are way too many doomsday prophets. I would prefer if failed doomsday prophecy were a crime that resulted in imprisonment.

Originally Posted by kostya But when you think about Noah's flood... I bet his contemporaries thought the old man was "nuts", yet one fine day...

Noah flood never happened. Aside from bible nobody tells anything about it, so it is a myth. Interestingly, bible doesn't mention Ice Age that did happen.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD nonetheless he didn't remove that tree, condemning the whole mankind to live in sin. I

Life is a test. That test is a sublime opportunity to demonstrate to God how much we love him. Adam failed that test and yet God made a plan to restore him, and humankind. People totally overlook that there were two trees right smack in the middle of the garden, including the tree of life. Why Adam took from the tree against which he was warned rather than that of life? I suppose he was caught off guard when he was tempted.

Whatever the case, God made not only a plan of salvation but of redemption, and regeneration, which I for one have taken the pleasure to indulge in. I have a certain inner-peace and am completely satisfied living fully for God. How many people do you know who can say that they are that happy with their life?

Originally Posted by reed9 Flood? What flood? Most real scholars think the story is rooted in a flood of the Black Sea, which may or may not have been particularly significant. There is absolutely no evidence of a world wide deluge.

Well, if anyone is looking for an ancient historical analog to the flood myth, all they have to do is look at pretty much any place and any time. Human civilization was congregated around flood plains, because river systems were vital for drinking water, travel, irrigation, and soil fertility (the annual floods of the Nile were so important to the crop cycle that the Egyptians built an entire mythology around them). A soil core taken from any archaeologically-significant site will yield records of multiple floods.

Millenia later, mankind is STILL congregated tightly around flood plains.

Anyway, what with the obvious Sumerian links to the Noah myth, I'd put my money on flooding in the Tigris-Euphrates river valley as the genesis of that story. The Black Sea flood happened in the wrong part of the world, and it didn't have anything to do with rainfall.

Originally Posted by bluegospel Life is a test. That test is a sublime opportunity to demonstrate to God how much we love him. Adam failed that test and yet God made a plan to restore him, and humankind. People totally overlook that there were two trees right smack in the middle of the garden, including the tree of life. Why Adam took from the tree against which he was warned rather than that of life? I suppose he was caught off guard when he was tempted. Whatever the case, God made not only a plan of salvation but of redemption, and regeneration, which I for one have taken the pleasure to indulge in. I have a certain inner-peace and am completely satisfied living fully for God. How many people do you know who can say that they are that happy with their life?

I'm wondering how you post this without noticing the inherent sadism.

Originally Posted by bluegospel Life is a test. That test is a sublime opportunity to demonstrate to God how much we love him. Adam failed that test and yet God made a plan to restore him, and humankind. People totally overlook that there were two trees right smack in the middle of the garden, including the tree of life. Why Adam took from the tree against which he was warned rather than that of life? I suppose he was caught off guard when he was tempted.

So all of the horrors of the world are a test so God can know we love him? Sounds awful. Tornadoes, earthquakes, the Holocaust, just so little old God knows who's sincere in their belief. As I mentioned before when someone brought up the Book of Job, a God that inflicts massive suffering on you, that commands you to kill your child just to see if you will, is not a good God.

Originally Posted by bluegospel Life is a test. That test is a sublime opportunity to demonstrate to God how much we love him. Adam failed that test and yet God made a plan to restore him, and humankind. People totally overlook that there were two trees right smack in the middle of the garden, including the tree of life. Why Adam took from the tree against which he was warned rather than that of life? I suppose he was caught off guard when he was tempted. Whatever the case, God made not only a plan of salvation but of redemption, and regeneration, which I for one have taken the pleasure to indulge in. I have a certain inner-peace and am completely satisfied living fully for God. How many people do you know who can say that they are that happy with their life?

You fully ignore what was said before in this thread. Please be so kind and answer the following questions:
1. Why have god to test people when he (as all-knowing god) should know the results before?
2. When god made the plan restore Adam and mankind (I think that you refer to the "Jesus saves" thing), why did he actually set up that plan 4000 years later (according to the young earth creationist time-scale), after the nearly complete extinction of mankind, several slaughters and destroying of several cities without the possibility of him forgiving those sins (remeber Jesus didn't live at that time), instead of doing it instantly, which should have saved many souls from external damnation in hell?
3. How can anyone be tempted without the knowledge of good and evil? How should Adam and Eve have known that it is not a good thing to disobey your god without knowing a thing about "not being good"? In my eyes this is a logical fallacy.
4. Why are you assuming that anyone who doesn't follow your religion can not be completely satisfied with his life?