The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by rob.rice the most misunderstood thing about religion is that it is only wrapper around spirituality the saddest thing is that most religious people have kept the wrapper and thrown away spirituality

Define "spirituality."

Originally Posted by SL00b In fact, I almost never hear anyone use "flogging."

That's probably because you're American. I've never heard anybody use "beating a dead horse".

I think it's great that one of the tags is 'human stupidity'.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli My bad here. I apologize. Its not you who did that.

No problems.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I just raised few points about hinduism, which i feel are wrong. I think everybody is doing here same. Where is the point of "claiming" here.

There is something wrong in your understanding perhaps.
Listen carefully:

This thread also consists of people who don't believe in God, and those who aren't sure whether God exists or not. Now, if you CLAIM that Allah is the creator of the universe and the humans etc., they will be questioning you about how do you know that!

By now, all you have been saying is that, Allah exists because it is written in Quran therefore it is true. Please understand, that people here are talking about -P-R-O-O-F-S-. There is a difference between a proof and a belief. You believe in Quran, FINE, but there is no -P-R-O-O-F- that Quran was written by God.

Therefore the best thing to do, is to say that my religion is my BELIEF and none of your business.Period.

Also, throwing stones on others religions, just to divert attention from your own, is VERY provoking, and not an LQ culture (especially if the other person has NOT CLAIMED that their god is the creator of this and that).

Did you notice that people here are only after you, not after me or anyone else? Did you ever thought why is so? That's because you are CLAIMING things about your religion here, that too without any proofs.

Please stop here and re-read ALL your posts in this thread and also read the people's reply to your posts, I am sure you'll understand what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by SL00b Well, in that case, we can drop the subject of the Koran entirely, that was written by a man, his name was Muhammad, that's a well-established fact.

We can't, since ShaanAli here has claimed that Quran was written by God, who knows, he might provide a REAL scientific/mathematical proof now!

There were signs that were ignored out of hubris, not out of deliberate calculation.

They quite literally sent a telegraph the day before. Not a "code" like you see on the moviees. Literally a telegraph on December 6th.

Originally Posted by reed9 Define "spirituality"? People use this word as a contrast to religion all the time, and what it seems to mean is that they reject the institutions of religion, churches and the like, but maintain the nonsense about immaterial souls and spirits and god(s), […] In which case it's just dis-organized religion and no better as far as respecting knowledge and reality.

What does this translate to?

<smack> FOOL! How DARE you believe in such foolish absurdity! Rid your mind of such ridiculous thoughts OR SO HELP ME…!

This is how I see it, anyway.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've been pretty well forced into the atheist/materialist mold by external forces (my mom held/holds beliefs that were/are just plain ridiculous to me ), but to force the whole "THOU MUST PURGE THINE MIND OF ALL NON-REALITIES" thing is just stupid IMO. The only reason I've become so adamant about it myself is because I feel like there are two choices: be the hippy-happy irrational "spiritual" or religious type, or be the hard-ass militant atheist who refuses to believe in anything other than WHAT IS REAL(!!), and MAKES DAMN SURE that everyone else MUST DO THE SAME. All this despite how it makes themselves and others feel*. Neither option seems appealing.

Sure, call the ^ rant "overreacting" if you want; I don't care anymore.

(* - IOW, fsck personal feelings…if it doesn't line up with THE TRUTH(!!!), then it doesn't matter. Believe in free will? THOU ART DELUSIONAL! Believe that life has any kind of "value"? THOU ART DELUSIONAL! Value anything that's strictly fictional (even if you don't believe that it's real)? <smack>! )

Originally Posted by MrCode The only reason I've become so adamant about it myself is because I feel like there are two choices: be the hippy-happy irrational "spiritual" or religious type, or be the hard-ass militant atheist who refuses to believe in anything other than WHAT IS REAL(!!), and MAKES DAMN SURE that everyone else MUST DO THE SAME. All this despite how it makes themselves and others feel*. Neither option seems appealing.

Or #3:

A strict (but not militant) atheist who refuses to believe in anything other than what makes sense. Those who believe in delusions are frowned upon and looked down on and rarely pitied. However, no conversion attempt is ever made, because it would be futile. How others feel is not relevant.

Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H A strict (but not militant) atheist who refuses to believe in anything other than what makes sense. Those who believe in delusions are frowned upon and looked down on and rarely pitied.

IN other words you're saying "anything I don't understand is a delusion, anybody who believes in such delusion should be pitied/looked down upon, and their feelings should be ignored".
IMO, it means being arrogant(technically such position assumes that you never make mistakes, which obviously isn't true), ignorant and closed-minded.

Originally Posted by linuxpokernut They quite literally sent a telegraph the day before. Not a "code" like you see on the moviees. Literally a telegraph on December 6th.

The message was 5,000 words that had to be decrypted and translated. And nowhere does it state an attack is coming on Pearl. By the time Washington:

- Decrypts and translates the final portion of the message, which instructs the embassy to deliver the message to the White House at 1pm ET.
- Deduces from the final portion that the target is Pearl Harbor, based on the timing, since the time corresponds to early morning in Hawaii.
- Relays a warning message to Hawaii, through commercial channels (government circuit is down).

The message is received in Pearl four hours too late.

Originally Posted by SigTerm IN other words you're saying "anything I don't understand is a delusion, anybody who believes in such delusion should be pitied/looked down upon, and their feelings should be ignored". IMO, it means being arrogant(technically such position assumes that you never make mistakes, which obviously isn't true), ignorant and closed-minded.

As a fellow strict atheist, I must endorse this message, because there's a hubris in the term "what makes sense," because the implication here is "what makes sense TO ME." This is a proposition that's every bit as much inward-looking as religion. Truth is discovered by looking out, not in.

There are many truths out there that I accept that don't make sense to me at all. My ego has not evolved to the point where I feel I can understand everything about everything.

Originally Posted by SigTerm IN other words you're saying "anything I don't understand is a delusion, anybody who believes in such delusion should be pitied/looked down upon, and their feelings should be ignored". IMO, it means being arrogant(technically such position assumes that you never make mistakes, which obviously isn't true), ignorant and closed-minded.

I don't think so. I mean what is the fundamental difference between an atheist and a religious person ? One believes in sense and the other in nonsense. Which believes which is up to you to decide.

It's true that I have been called arrogant by many people many times. But, I don't care what they think.

I don't see why I am ignorant, so you have to elaborate.

Closed-minded ... not really, because I can change my mind if it starts making sense.

Originally Posted by SL00b As a fellow strict atheist, I must endorse this message, because there's a hubris in the term "what makes sense," because the implication here is "what makes sense TO ME." This is a proposition that's every bit as much inward-looking as religion. Truth is discovered by looking out, not in. There are many truths out there that I accept that don't make sense to me at all. My ego has not evolved to the point where I feel I can understand everything about everything.

I cannot really say "I understand everything", even tho I'm pretty close. I can say that "I understand everything that can be understood". That which cannot be understood is not coherent, and very likely false, and is declared false until further evidence appears.

I strongly recommend that you start trying hard to understand things first and then believe them to be true. Doing otherwise is a delusion and will lead you astray.

Also, my utopia would be where everyone would be intelligent and would understand things, not where only a few do and look upon the rest in pity.

Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H I cannot really say "I understand everything", even tho I'm pretty close. I can say that "I understand everything that can be understood". That which cannot be understood is not coherent, and very likely false, and is declared false until further evidence appears. I strongly recommend that you start trying hard to understand things first and then believe them to be true. Doing otherwise is a delusion and will lead you astray. Also, my utopia would be where everyone would be intelligent and would understand things, not where only a few do and look upon the rest in pity.

The more one knows, typically, the more one knows how much they don't know, which is a humbling experience. Based on your answer, you know shockingly little.

Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H I cannot really say "I understand everything", even tho I'm pretty close. I can say that "I understand everything that can be understood". That which cannot be understood is not coherent, and very likely false, and is declared false until further evidence appears.

So if you don't understand something it must most likely be false? I would call that close-minded and ignorant.

Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H I don't think so. I mean what is the fundamental difference between an atheist and a religious person ? One believes in sense and the other in nonsense. Which believes which is up to you to decide.

No, the difference is one believes that there is no god, and other follows his religion.
For both of them their positions make sense.

Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H I don't see why I am ignorant, so you have to elaborate.

Because you willingly ignore everything that doesn't make sense to you. Which is called "willful ignorance". If you never investigate something that doesn't make sense to you, you'll never understand it, and it will never start making any sense. Once the school is over, educating yourself is your own job, nobody is required to explain things to you.

Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H I can say that "I understand everything that can be understood".

IMO, it is 10000 years too early for you to be saying that.

Anyway, your opinion about yourself and your own abilities is not my problem, and this direction of discussion is not interesting. I have nothing else to say to you.

Originally Posted by SL00b The more one knows, typically, the more one knows how much they don't know, which is a humbling experience. Based on your answer, you know shockingly little.

I see no logic in this statement.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD So if you don't understand something it must most likely be false? I would call that close-minded and ignorant.

Why ?

There are many things that are made up. These things do not make sense, thus they are false. The truth has to make sense. Something that doesn't make sense must be false.

I see the world as puzzle pieces. These pieces are pieces of information. Some pieces may seem to fit, but when you gather more pieces, they no longer fit. The more pieces you have the more accurate your puzzle picture / understanding will be. There are people out there who make false puzzle pieces, and they try their hardest to make a twisted puzzle for you. You have to realize that it is twisted and false. Unfortunately, this is very hard to do. I'm not even sure how I was able to do it. I think logic may be an inherent trait, because the pieces fall together unconsciously.

So, what I'm saying is that information that fits together is true, info that does not is false. However, you need lots of information to be able to determine what fits together and what does not. So, really, the more data you have the more you can know, but not necessarily will know, unless you really try to see if the data fits. Most people are just spoon fed their data and simply accept it all like a gelatinous blob. This is how doublethink is possible with most people.