The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by SL00b You're conflating the conscious and the unconscious. You don't need any information on how to breathe and how to cry... your body does these things involuntarily. That's why they continue to work when you're asleep.

Our unconscious brain instructs to breathe... but the point is how brain does that? right after bay born, starts breathing. Baby learn after 1 year how to walk, learn after 2 years how to speak, like this he keep on learning.... leaning is nothing but instructing and training the brain.... question was who train them how to swallow the fluid in womb even their brain is not fully developed. who train their brain how to take breathe. who train them how to cry.

Human body is very complex, very complex. It can not be designed and created by itself. Can a human being who is very much intelligent with help of science create another creator like human being. If human being can not do that, how come nature can do that?

As for how to suck milk... duh. Didn't I just explain how babies suck amniotic fluid for 5-6 months before they're born? DNA science is in its infancy, but the things we can already do with it are pretty amazing, you really should look into it. No, we can't match nature, but it's been in the DNA business for billions of years now, and it has countless organisms working on the project.

Agree science can do amazing, but can it produce a life. Evolutions are in just theories, there is no proof.

Originally Posted by Arcane I I'm not trying to proove God doesn't exist

I am sorry, You mean here you agree there is GOD?

Originally Posted by Arcane YOU have to show evidence and valid arguments about God in the way it is written in Bible or whatever book you believe in.

What more evidences you need? Evidence is in front of you. If you want to believe you will, if you dont want to believe, you will not.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli What more evidences you need? Evidence is in front of you. If you want to believe you will, if you dont want to believe, you will not.

Just a little correction - evidence in general shouldn't be the subject of belief or disbelief. If evidence NEEDS to be believed then it's no evidence at all.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli What more evidences you need? Evidence is in front of you. If you want to believe you will, if you dont want to believe, you will not.

Hey, I don't want to "believe". I want to know. There's a big difference.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Here the question is with you my friend, who dont believe in GOD existence. I have no doubt in GOD existence, you call it blind faith or whatever. Nature is the big proof for me to believe and holy books are the guidance to how to live life. Since you dont believe, you need to raise question who created everything? and answer should come from you first. there on we will discuss your view of point.

No, I most certainly do not need to ask "who created everything," because that's a nonsense question that leads in a logical circle. You're automatically assuming there's a who, without justification. The question you need to ask is "How did this all come about?", and if the answers to that question lead you to a who, awesome, and if not, awesome. The only way to arrive at truth is to shed your preconceptions, and go where the evidence leads.

Science has discovered many answers about how, and none of them require or include a who.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Our unconscious brain instructs to breathe... but the point is how brain does that? right after bay born, starts breathing. Baby learn after 1 year how to walk, learn after 2 years how to speak, like this he keep on learning.... leaning is nothing but instructing and training the brain.... question was who train them how to swallow the fluid in womb even their brain is not fully developed. who train their brain how to take breathe. who train them how to cry.

So you're saying the brain is incapable of figuring out anything on its own? That organisms are incapable of passing on certain hard-wired instructions as part of the DNA that assembles a human brain?

Neuroscience is another field that is still very much in its infancy, so it's way too early to be making these kinds of assumptions.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Human body is very complex, very complex. It can not be designed and created by itself. Can a human being who is very much intelligent with help of science create another creator like human being. If human being can not do that, how come nature can do that?

Again, nature has been in the DNA business for billions of years, and has countless organisms working on the project. There's simply no way that human beings can match that level of productivity. It's like you're wondering why a toddler can't balance a basketball on his finger here.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Agree science can do amazing, but can it produce a life.

Yes, it can.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Evolutions are in just theories, there is no proof.

Please learn the difference between the terms "theory" and "scientific theory."

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I am sorry, You mean here you agree there is GOD?

Pointless question..read posts again and try understanding before reply. I said i am aware that something like God can exist but i'm against your type nonsence that God is precisely 1:1 like Bible or other book that was written by human with no God involved wants(describes) it to be and YOU are trying to tell it is true without any proof whatsoever. You are basicaly coming here and telling "Hey guys. You know what? Tomorrow we will die. Because some written text piece or some fanatic said so!"

Originally Posted by ShaanAli What more evidences you need? Evidence is in front of you. If you want to believe you will, if you dont want to believe, you will not.

Oh yea? In that case please name at least 10 evidence that is clearly unbeatable about God that noone can deny but would be better if 20 or more..is it so hard to do reality check?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli There is only One Creator Who created everything that exists, and that is Allah Subhanah. Thus, the Shayateen, who are amongst the jinn and humans, are also a creation of Allah. Shayateen is not a GOD or competing to GOD. Now your question will be, why HE created Shayataan ? Allah Subhanah created everything in the heavens and the earth, and everything that exists in between. And amongst all His creation, He gave intelligence and the free will to choose, to only two of His creations as a test: human beings and jinns. Allah says in the Holy Quran in Chapter 67 Surah Al Mulk verse 2:He (Allah) created death and life that He may test you, to see which of you is the best in deeds. Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 51 Surah Dhariyat verse 56:I have not created the jinn and men except for this that they should worship Me alone. Thus, the Shayaateen are not another separate creation, but rather one (from amongst the jinn and humans) become a Shaitaan himself because of his own deeds. The Shaitaan is not one entity, but rather whoever amongst the jinn and men rebels, disobeys, and challenges the authority of Allah of his own free will, becomes a Shaitaan or plural Shayateen. Allah Subhanah created jinn and men for His worship, and He gave them the free will to choose between Right and wrong, Guidance and mis-guidance, Truth and falsehood. He made apparent the Truth and falsehood, Right and wrong, through His Guidance and His Messengers. And He also made known the result and destination of those who chose either of the two Paths. The ones who believed and did righteous deeds, would deserve His Mercy and Forgiveness and have been promised the eternal reward and pleasure of their Creator, and Paradise. And the ones who dis-believed and did evil deeds, would deserve His Wrath and Anger, and have been promised the everlasting torture of the Hell Fire. Thus, one is not created a Shaitaan; but anyone from amongst the jinn and humans, who choose with their own free will to dis-obey and rebel against the commands of his Creator, becomes a Shaitaan. And because we are in a test for the prescribed period of this worldly life, He has allowed both, the good and the evil, to carry on following the Paths which they have chosen of their own free will. On the Day of Judgment, Allah will decide with Justice who amongst the men and jinn deserve Paradise, and who amongst them deserve Hell Fire.

With all due respect your belief system:

First, in every post, you almost are trying to make people believe in what you have been grown up believing, your holy book. Really bad advice.

Second, you seem almost unaware of generic arguments. Don't understand this point? please refer the line above this.

Third, couple of times you have mentioned that The Quran was written by some God. It was written by a Prophet, not THE God(?).

Forth, Which two major religions are you talking about boy? You need a reality check, big time.

fifth, after reading all you've been arguing in here so far, I still believe you're not gonna accept anything with 'open mind', not your fault, It's human nature.

Sixth, I've got nothing against your or anybody's belief system (what you call religion), still I'd like to read some generic arguments based on own developed sense of thinking, conscious awareness, experiences, NOT what's written in a holy book. There's one or more than one holy books in every belief system. And they are more than 1500 years old with no proof of that, like you don't have.

Seventh, I belong to a belief system Hinduism where it is considered to have one creator OM and many many many prophets or avatars AND my childhood sweetheart and now gf is a devout Muslim (beat it), BUT I refuse to blindly believe either ways. I got holy books in my system too but they don't let me KNOW.
I want to know ... like the other guy in this thread.

Eighth, No offense dude, but again, the way you've been posting, would advise you to go back to first line.

Regards.

Originally Posted by porphyry5 After Euler's equation had revealed yet another inconsistency in math, that the imaginary number also required special handling, the math of complex numbers was developed, driven by the need to explain away the fact that basic algebra delivers nonsense when applied to imaginary numbers. In other words, this was yet another example to add to that list of inconsistencies I described in the essay. Math is not merely inconsistent, its development is very much driven by such inconsistencies.

Once again, just because you don't understand the math, doesn't mean it's incorrect of inconsistent. e^z=1 where z is complex has infinite solutions in the complex plane. You can't take the inverse of something that doesn't have a single solution, and as such your little derivation is flawed.

See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_logarithm

I actually believe both religion and science (evolution), Because I can believe in both, I do not lean to one or the other for a constant answer. Science can prove nature because through science we can duplicate some things nature can achieve on it's own, religion however can not, every time there is a religious artifact that might of been found it's either destroyed in a fire (so we can not examine it) or it just disappears off the face of the earth. Having said this, religion itself is not about gods, goddesses or a central being, it's about living in a humane way...

I do not believe in a single god and yet my faith rests in the hands of a religion that is more then 4000 years old. They have multiple gods and goddesses but this religion does not force them upon you, you may believe in one god, all gods or as many as you'd like, or even none at all. Because it's not the gods that matter, its the teachings nature itself can provide that made this religion so special. Their was no right or wrong because without one, you can not have the other, instead there was a fine balance between them. This religion was based on scientific practices, back then they just called it Magik because it was not really understood why things that were working worked in the first place, they could repeat it, but the general population was just not educated enough back then to see why potions and other trinkets made from various metals worked for curing sickness. But today we know how metals like, sliver is able to keep cells in bacteria from replicating it's no longer "Magic".

Also I might want to point out the likeliness of a god existing is slim to none, during the times that this religion existed at it's peak, people were named gods because the people around them saw or believed to see them do something that that no other human could do at that time... Well just because someone does something like survive in water for days on end with no boat or anything to grab on to doesn't mean he/she is the god of water... Like I said back then people did not understand things and how they actually worked, so I can understand how they got to a conclusion that some person can be a god. But that doesn't actually mean that they are one.

This religion I choose has taught me a lot of things that most religions will never dip there toes in, because most of them are against the very nature of it. That is being equal, no god will tell us we are, but man and woman once lived in a time where they were equals... women were as highly regarded in the tribe or clan as men, they even fought long side with man. Sometimes I wish this lesson survived through out the centuries, because today things are not equal and can never be equal.

For those that are curious about what my religion is, I am Druid, I am not fictional, I do not have any powers accept what nature (science and know how) provide me. I can not throw magic out of my hands either. (Yes I get a lot of questions like these)

Druidism is not about right or wrong, or who you must repent or stuffer the wrath of another gods powers, its about becoming aware of what you are capable of and using that knowledge you thought didn't exist to help yourself and others. In nature there is no right or wrong, there is no perfect or worse case, because there can't be... there is no way to define such without using preference.

How that being said, this whole "god" can create and nature can't bull crap tells me that ShaanAli has never witnessed a birth of something, has never took a seed from a plant and grew an entire plant from that seed... The sun, rain, air and the soil make it grow, gods on the other hand can not. We know how each of these work and can replicate all of them, a plant knows how to clean the air by itself, nothing teaches it, but it does it, because the clean air is a by-product of how that plant actually survives, but if plant had a consciousness it wouldn't know it was producing clean air in the first place. My point is not everything has to be taught to a being, plant, human, animal... doesn't matter, it's called cause and effect and that's how 100% of what we know and understand was found, if "god" said let there be light.. well we know the effect, but what made "god" do it in the first place? I mean, what was the cause of such an event?

Another questions for "god" as you believe him to be, if he/she/it does not play by the same rules, then how does time work for such a being? I mean when does time slow down or speed up for them? Is there a time? This is one of the reasons why I do not follow a god... because everything dies sooner or later, nothing and I mean nothing, not even this very universe can last forever, eventually this universe will either expand so far it will start to tear itself a part or it will begin to contract and squeeze everything into a single atom again and wait for the next big bang. Either way, nothing that can effect us will out live the universe. So with that in mind, how can there be a god in the first place?

Also ShaanAli, I can see by your posts you are a very proud and religious man, but you mention history, well the problem with religion is, it has a nasty history, even mine, science however has a less tainted history, The entire Christian religion was based off my faith, so my faith in superior beings has weathered away, why would a "god" try to remodel a pagan religion (which according to the 10 commandments is evil) and claim it as another, this my friend does not sound like someone all knowing and mighty, it sounds like a what a group of humans would do. So then the word of "god" is now tainted with the blood of women, men and children, convert or die... interesting is it not?

It's okay to have faith in something, but you should never travel down a path blind folded, we know some things in this universe that can't be changed, such as math, 1 will always be 1, no man, or woman or other living being, "god" like or not can change this fact, since they can't change that, they are bound by the same physics as we all are, physics uses math to prove things, since math is absolute, there is no disbelieving because there are only facts with numbers, and a fact is a fact. It's set in stone and can not be changed.

ShaanAli also mentioned something that caught my eye... You were referring to god as light? Does this mean I can create a god? I mean, all I need to create light is some metal and a rock, or two sticks and some rope or vines, I can then create sparks which can be used to create an ember, which in turn can be used to start a fire... So this fire needs oxygen and fuel (food and air) so this god is mortal then? I am confused on how you think a god might be light? we can naturally and artificially create light. Even light has an energy source that runs out. So then a god can die sooner or later, which makes me think that a being like a god has a very slim chance of even remotely being possible to exist, because since we know numbers are absolute and our physics are based off numbers... You can not create perpetual motion, since nothing has infinite energy then either a god can never exist, or they did exist thousands of years ago and died out.

I'm sorry for the novel guys but some things needed to be said, ShaanAli has a huge amount of faith, and good for him. But
it doesn't mean what he believes is true, or what I believe for that matter, because in the end, it is all preference, until we can fully explain how every event occurs with just numbers.

Originally Posted by -demo- I actually believe both religion and science (evolution), Because I can believe in both, I do not lean to one or the other for a constant answer. Science can prove nature because through science we can duplicate some things nature can achieve on it's own, religion however can not, every time there is a religious artifact that might of been found it's either destroyed in a fire (so we can not examine it) or it just disappears off the face of the earth. Having said this, religion itself is not about gods, goddesses or a central being, it's about living in a humane way...{...}

Gold words. If religion would be invented to protect humanity side in humans then it would be great but no..they want control and money and ignore human real needs.. Science is honest religion not and yes they hide too much as much they can despite they claim that they have nothing to hide. Ironic isn't it?

{...}we know some things in this universe that can't be changed, such as math, 1 will always be 1, no man, or woman or other living being, "god" like or not can change this fact, since they can't change that, they are bound by the same physics as we all are, physics uses math to prove things, since math is absolute, there is no disbelieving because there are only facts with numbers, and a fact is a fact. It's set in stone and can not be changed.{...}

Correction - we THINK this way because we don't have reason to doubt it so far BUT we don't KNOW 100% sure how all this universe and God system works untill we either will meet it or will die and then we won't care anymore. Also math is still something not always same? Why? Unlike physics math is language - it varries from places to places and for some math formulas result will change in exception variable. In some country it is said that 2+2=3or5. Gravity however is same everywhere which means laws of nature apply everywhere same BUT we don't know even that. We don't know what God is if it is so we can't claim our belief of how we want it to be true yet. Maybe it can and does change laws of physics maybe not..maybe he|she|it even doesn't care or doesn't exist at all. Maybe we are alien experiment or something else. Noone knows for sure yet..maybe in future we will discover how to interact with nature laws to change gravity not use other nature laws to overcome it so on and then we will think we are Gods..as i said premise is TRUTH and none of living humans on Earth know real truth at the moment and if they do maybe they have reason to hide it from rest of the world..some people believe there is human group who can do god like stuff and not magic but really change directly nature stuff. However it is just rumour so far..

Quit splitting hairs. Faith is belief despite evidence. It's not hard. People who can't do it are just afraid, so they compensate by calling people who can do it naive.

If you can't believe, you'd better be right when your ticket gets punched! I haven't got much to lose if I'm wrong, do I?

As I said in another thread; I was in a swimming accident a few days ago and came so close to drowning that I saw my life pass before my eyes. Sound scary? It wasn't. Wouldn't it be nice to have that kind of comfort and confidence when fighting for life and facing your own mortality?

[End]

viel gluck,

J

Originally Posted by litlmary {...}I was in a swimming accident a few days ago and came so close to drowning that I saw my life pass before my eyes.{...}

Forgot mention that science has explanation for this as well. When we die we trigger something in our DNA that makes us see our life and "seeing tunnel" is eye nerve reaction on death. They have been experimenting with those space train things where you enter chair that rotates in 360 degrees and it triggers similar reaction. Again noone says God doesn't exist but the way believers portrait God it is just nonsence and way too many things can be prooven wrong by science as time goes by. What matters for people is real truth.

Faith is belief despite evidence. It's not hard. People who can't do it are just afraid, so they compensate by calling people who can do it naive.

You can't possibly be saying that believing something despite evidence is a good thing. I might be afraid of death, but I'm not going to resort to believe something irrational just to get some comfort.

If you can't believe, you'd better be right when your ticket gets punched! I haven't got much to lose if I'm wrong, do I?

So you want to be on a safe side, huh? I'm sure if god exists he/she will really appreciate your calculated approach.