i have to agree with Greyweather on the windows issues. i have a friend who got me interested in computers about 2 years ago. i decided to do the rent to own thing so if i screwed things up i could always get another one with no extra cost to me lol . after playing with formatting and trying to reinstall windows OS's and 3 computers later i finally got the how to part. i finally gave them back the last one with the same sorry OS mellenium and bought my very own. the first thing i did was format the HD and reinstall XP Pro with no trouble. but since then i have formatted HD many times and every so often i get a bad install, using the same CD and the same format and the same OS. don't know why but it just happens. for me i have found much more support for linux then i did for Windows. I plan on doing a lot of reading a testing before i make it my main OS but because it does offer me full control over MY pc i will change and learn it. i also wanted to include a few more links that i received that i forgot to include in my last post.
Linux Tut/ e-book
Slackware Tut/ e-book
Linux Documentation Project
RedHat 9 pdf Manual

One thing I learnt from linux was patience. Try some things, they don't work, get all mixed up ... go to bed, next morning you have new ideas and one of them works! And the other thing is that your problem has almost always been experienced by other people before. With some patient googling and learning how to post problems on forums like this, so that people who know the solution recognise your problem, you get a long way and have a lot of fun.

I have to reinstall windoze xp on our dual boot pc about every six months. [there are several people using it and they tend to install unwise stuff which screws things up]. It takes about ten hours (including the basic software and the essential security updates). There are crashes or freezes about every week. Linux (first RH8 now RH9) has never needed to be reinstalled, I don't recall any system crash or freeze ever, in a year, on that machine. For fun I install some other linux distros from time to time, it usually takes half an hour to a hour or two, and typically one has all the essential software included with the distro. And otherwise one can very quickly pick up the extra things you need.

Last time we had problems with windoze (xp) i put it into safe startup mode in order to find out what was wrong. I think that the home network setup wizard had got stuck without finishing its job, there is no way to UNDO a home network, and we couldn't get onto internet. Up pops a message from Microsoft saying "it looks like this computer is so much altered, that we think you are cheating on us, so windoze is going to autodestruct in 72 hours unless you phone in to head office and get a reactivate code". No internet so no way to pick up the code. You try to figure out what is going on, do not succeed, in the mean time the clock is ticking... "48 hours to autodestruct" ... "24 hours to autodestruct". Like star trek, fantastic.

I managed to fix it just in time "3 hours to autodestruct", but never found out what had actually happened or why. I had one major disaster with redhat 9, partially failed update of glibc, but I did manage in a day or two to find out what had happened and why.

I'm very intrigued about that. Have you looked in the Microsoft Knowledge bank, because that looks really interesting. I only thought you needed to re-activate Windows after a major hardware change and an Installation. And I never thought Microsoft would accuse people of cheating them so blatently.

I've a feeling about the OS dilemma, that it doesn't matter what you use... as long as it fits your way of working with computers.


Here are a few personal experiences I'd like to share with you:

I've been very enthusiastic about Windows XP, but nowadays I simply can't take it anymore. It makes me feel hopeless, and out of control. (yet again, this is a personal experience, not a flame) I'd installed Windows 98 some time ago at my system (for wine), but I've never had so much troubles and frustration. Nothing was detected.. monitor, videocard, network, sound, or motherboard features; like usb. Nothing! After literally 4 hours and 30 reboots, I've managed to complete the basic install (drivers + windows update)

last weekend, I had to install an usb-network-interface, and it gave me a big headache. Both XP and Slackware detect this properly, but 98 doesn't. I've installed the .INF file... I've run the hardware detection, yet nothing. I've rebooted, and it keeps telling me something about an usb device, but can't find drivers (even not in the A: disk). the readme tells about a .SYS file, but I can't see it. (hidden..! d'oh) After a few other reboots and playing with the driver installers... I went to the device manager, open the unknown device, and press "Update Driver". Suddently everything is detected, the driver is located, and installed. ...spoken of user-friendly...



seams like it just depends on what you're used to do with computers imho, Windows XP is not user-friendly for "power users" (or whatever you want to call these kind of people) It has been designed for 90% of the home users, and that's been done very well.

btw.. Windows XP still doesn't let my monitor use anything above 60Hz. I'm still guessing, but I can't ask view any diagnostics about the problem To install by avance97 audio, I had to search for an INF file in some deep directory structure..


btw: I hope this thead doesn't end like comp.os.linux.advocacy troll sorry if this reply sounds like a troll..


To quote my sig, some people just want to eat, others like to cook their own meal. (I'm still not sure it's spelled correctly) Windows might be the perfect OS for you, and that's ok. It was designed to be this way. But I'm getting all confused by Windows and it's behavour, because it just sits in my way

i love that the lowest option is "3 hours or less"

also quite interesting that looking at the results, nobody managed it between 3 and 20 hours, it always took less or (apparently) more.

For me, i now feel really uncomfortable in windows. Only because i dont feel in control, i know that it can break at any point for what appears to be no reason. Im in a position where i cant format this system because my family has all their stuff on it, and if i do that i wont be able to connect to the net again (loads of troubles with my ISP, but nvm) so i just have to cope. It takes 8 minutes to reboot this machine now, compared to about 50 seconds on slackware (if not less than 50 seconds)

Linux might not be ready for the desktop yet, because the average home user isnt capable of installing ANYTHING, not even windows. The fact is that they usually dont have to. I have installed XP before, and i dont understand what is supposed to make it so easy? iv found that any of RedHat/Mandrake/Suse is an easier install than XP (but then, all 3 have always detected all my hardware)

The problem is that most people who run windows think they know everything about how a computer it runs. I was speaking to someone where i used to work, and she was doing this computing course. She claimed it "taught everything there is to know about using a computer". I looked at what the course taught, it consisted of MS Word, Excel and a bit of Access. Yeah, what else can computers do?

At the end of the day, people love being able to use things without having to understand what goes on in the background. Im more of a WHY person, i want to know how it all works and why, and im like that with most things.

im rambling about nothing now anyway, but i still argue that a pre configured Linux system beats a pre configured XP system hands down.

I recently installed Slackware...only to have boatloads of problems....RH8.0 works like a charm (first install took how ever long it was to formatt and install my packages). I gave up on Slackware only untill I get my Western Digital 80.0 gig this week so I don't have to dual boot the harddrive other than that Linux reminds me of what Windows ISN'T.

I'll have to take somones quote (i don't know who it is but) "Linux isn't "harder", it's just "different"!!!!!!!!!!!


Imagine if Windows was a little more difficult...you wouldn't ever use a computer.

Looks like I'm the only person thus far who's done it in more than three hours and less than twenty. Had I not been a total idiot, it probably would have been done in about three... but I tried to get smart with installing my graphics on the first SuSE install, and that fudged things up. I am doing much better now.

Windoze is easy, yes. It's also slow, insecure, and a pain in the butt compared to Linux. This has become painfully apparent to me this morning, as a part of my Linux/Windoze dual boot machine is being RMA'd to Newegg (no fault of Linux, Windoze OR me, I might add ) and I'm stuck using XP on our old machine. My god, what a piece of CRAP Windoze is when you've gotten "used" to Linux (and I've only been using it for two weeks!) IE is annoyingly slow, and don't get me started on the popups. Norton's prompted me about five times about security updates. Puhlease.

I use Windoze for games now, and games exclusively. I STILL can't get my Radeon drivers to work on Linux, but I'm not terribly upset since I do my graphics intensive stuff (read games) on Windoze anyway. But I love Open Office.

Linux is different, and, since I have little programming background, hard. But not impossible, and I'm willing to play with it.

Pick a time to learn Linux, if you can't do it straight away, when you have a week off just to play with it exclusively. And if you want to get online immediately, buy yourself an external modem and save yourself the heartache. It is doable. And it's better.

shoe

hahaha..

You lasted 5 days of grief and then gave up? hehehe.

Stand up son! You are an MS techie through and through...

customer: Oh how do I fix this <insert misc problem>
MS Techie: Oh yeah, ummm, Reboot -> reinstall the app -> rebuild the box


Oh yeah, I put more than 20 because it took me a few days to get a SuSE install to connect to the net through a USB ADSL modem. In fact I needed expert help fortunately I knew someone who visited me specially. Cheers Thomas!

The install itself was swish, it took a few hours to install every package though, and I mean EVERY package

I have four computers at home and yes all are windows, win 2000pro ,xp pro to .net2003 server. my oldest computer contain redhat 9.0 after removing win 98SE @ 533MHz with AMD k6-2 the slowest but yet it is the heart beat of my network. I must admit, but windows does spoil me with point and click. But I want more than that, I want to control my computer and do exactly what I want. I want an operating system that will run without any GUI. I want a slim, trim, secure operating system, so I turn to Linux and it gave me just that plus more and the best yet, for free.
Conclusion: Windows is good for the point and click style type and print enviroment. and Linux can do that too. But if you want a secure work horse that could handle multi task between multi users and not rebooting at all then Linux is the one for you. If you want global support for your operating system, Linux is for you. If you want to play hard core video games and don't have a play station, then windows is for you.

I just got another problem since I never really used Windows it always freaks me out that there is no way you'll now what is really going on when you install a new app.Oh well it shows you the lib's it is going to install but what those things do is unknown to man.
Just being paranoid I guess.

Linux isn't Windows and I for one am glad- I left Win. for a reason, I got sick of the training wheels holding me back. Yes, Linux does take time to master and involves more work on the user's part, but it's all there: /usr/doc, /usr/info, man, www.tldp.org, app-specific on-site help, and now this site. Patience please! It pays off in the end. I'm going with Linux from now on.
As a side note, Slackware 9.0 detected all of my hardware correctly, while Win. ME failed to see the tape drive, modem, and a few others. Also, it always was "finding new hardware" and attempting to "install it"! No Thanks!

-jayjwa

Patience young Obi-Wan. If you've been writing for five years with your left hand, 10 years will take for you to learn how to write with your right hand. If you've been writing for ten years with your right hand, 20 years will take for you to learn how to write with the left hand. The point is... Being a Windows user for 30 years is not a plus, but a big problem because you see the things only in one way and believe that is the right, the only and the easiest direction... Keep dual booting, reading the docs and learning from forums like this, keep writing with both hands. If at the end you decide to use Windows, I bet you will be much better at what you do by then. Linux teaches a lot about hardware and how a computer really works. A final question. "If it has taken 13 years for you to learn DOS/Windows, what makes you think that in few hours you should master Linux?..."

Good luck in the future
Regards

another (very long) thread on this topic:

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...threadid=54388

MAW, I feel for you.

Linux is not ready for prime time that is correct. I have been installing and playing with the OS for 10 years now, well trying to install, its come a good ways but it is NOT ready for mainstream computer DESKTOP use.

However, eventually it will be, might be another 5 years, and it'd be better if the community would stop creating new projects and finnished the bajillion halfway done ones out there, but.....

Back to my point, eventually it will be, and you will then start learning it.

OR

You will start learning it now, put up with a few crappyily designed detection/configuration issues and when it becomes mainstream one day you can say, I can find my way around a little bit in Linux, so I am better off than someone who has never seen it.

As to documentation, yeah its time for the linux community to pull its head out of its ass and do away with man and whatis, there are much better USER FRIENDLY systems out there. Keep them for nostalgia and compatability but get a different system one with a FREAKING INDEX that is halfway decent preferred.

We also need a small utility that will perhaps examine a system and compare its hardware and BIOS info against an online database and PREWARN new users of potential problem areas. Of course, this will require the community first get off its high horse and quit acting like everyone should just stick a CD in a drive and suddenly be in computer heaven. Tell a user things like YOU Have plug n play OS set to true or on, it is suggested you turn this BIOS setting off as it is known to cause serious complications with Linux. Or You have a wireess NIC that currently only has a BETA stage driver, this may cause you network problems, however, linux will run it may just have trouble accessing network resources, etc... This let's a user know right off the bat smooth sailing is not expected unless you make some changes.

Also, I think it would be better to convince people to use the CD distros, that way all you loose is a 0.25 cd an the time it took to burn it. Instead of turning your hard drive upside down to partition a few GB's of space for linux. That or the old Linux on top of Windows distributions.

But lets face it, Linux is not ready for mainstream and NEITHER are its supporters, just read the little wannabe replies in this thread and one can see that.

However, let me share with you the meaning of true PAIN when it comes to linux.

About 10 years ago I was using a 486, or was it a 386, anyway there were only 3 real distrubutions at that time, GNU {now called debian not sure if it was at that time or not} slackware {yes its pretty old } and a distro that was toated as the "scientific distro} which name escapes me but I believe started with an E. Anyway, I tried GNU, and Slackware, GNU never installed, I was using a 9600Kbps modem and got tired of trying to locate teh packages, slackware I managed to get a set of diskettes {cd's were still not mainstream at this point and in fact my system did not have a CD drive} for, so I installed it. It did not even boot, it pretty much laughed at me. I went to usenet news groups where I was greeted by the rudest group of assholes I have ever stumbled on. They could not help, but they had time to ridicule me. I gave up. Tried the distros agrain a year later, same assholes, same ridicule. Kept doing this until red hat came out, I had tried a few other distros that had come out and gotten a few new systems, red hat was awful in its first incarnation so I ignored it from then on, playing with varying distros, doing different things, all the mean while praising windows for just working, even if it did lock up occasionally. I finally tried mandrake with version 7.1 it installed and worked, without any hocus pokus and not only that it worked for several boots. Other distributions would decide to boot only sometimes. There were not Linux help books at the local library or bookstore so I was unfortunately still using usenet, and those same assholes appeared to still be there, I tried Linux 8.0 a year or so later, still too many problems with little to no help, though I had found other places where some users were more civil by now, linux was still a major flop as far as a DESKTOP OS went. Mandrake 9.1 has made leaps and bounds, but it takes away some of the founding principals of Linux like controlling what is and what is not installed, oh it will allow you to, only if you try it, it will most likely not install a vital part due to poor documentation on what is a VITAL part of a desktop OS version of Linux. But I gotr it all installed and configures, then X11 decided my scroll wheeel would scroll horizontally instead of vertically, never did get that fixed, switched from USB to PS/2 which worked, but is a hack/work around not a fix.

I don't take linux seriously and you need to not either. It needs to just be another app you PLAY with to be honest. After a while you'll figure out enough to make it semi useful, but you still need windows for anything serious. Eventually, though it will get there, with your gaining knowledge of it and how to configure and THE bug fixes and improved code that comes out ever so often, and who knows maybe one day it will all, "what the racing community calls" gel together and just work like you want/expect it to. Until that day, remember, its just a new game, or a new app that you really do not need but are a little curious about. It's like being a BETA tester, nothing special, but yet kind of interesting to you all the same.

Come'on man! <snap some bad words here> If you want serious replies from people, don't start to insult ideas from others about computer science. Stop acting like a troll , or enjoy yourself with comp.os.linux.advocacy newsgroups. I've seen those too much...!

I hope you've read some other posts here... Not everyone here can take Microsoft Windows at serious as you do. But if you feel comfortable with Microsoft Windows, you should be happy. It's the best home-user supported system, and I don't feel sad about that. It's just that not everyone likes the Microsoft-way of doing things.



edit: right now I do all serious things with Linux, things I couldn't possibly imagine doing with a computer. Microsoft Windows XP just sits here at /dev/hda1 for the games.