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Old 10-30-2015, 01:19 PM   #1
enorbet
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Thanks Obama


Greetings
I took a chance in choosing the topic title because so often that phrase is stated sarcastically and while I don't want this thread to degenerate into a heated (and generally useless) political debate I want to counter some of the negativity that exists these days because I remember a time when parties worked together a lot more than today. The climate lately has been one of stubborn obstructionism and IMHO it does not serve public needs. All it does is serve as obfuscation so that the rich get richer and the poor, poorer..... and "poor" these days starts somewhere around $100,000.00 annual income. The border line has been moved as to who is "Out" and who is "In" if you hadn't noticed. It used to be that the Republican Party was the party of the rich or at least Management and the Democratic Party was that of the poor or working class. That the Democrats have moved further toward the money has ruined the balance that once existed. The swing back and forth was useful and fair and now the entire swing has been moved into "He who has the gold makes the rules" territory.

What this thread is specifically about is to list some legislation that has resulted because of Obama and the Democrats that is laudatory. I'd like to start with a little known piece that directly affects us all here at LQ, at the very least for what it can mean to tech jobs as well as daily living, health and expenses.

I'm talking about the "Materials Genome Initiative". For example a major breakthrough has occurred in alloys NOT dependent on China that can vastly reduce costs and availability of any and all kinds of cooling from the cooling of your PC to the cooling of your home to the refrigeration of trucks, trains, and entire industrial plants. This is accomplished magnetically and does not involve any greenhouse gasses nor require high input energy.

Comments have (rightly) been made about oldtimer politicians who can't even handle email so it is important, I think, to recognize that some embrace The Information Age and wish to work to create new jobs in an area in which we (the USA) already have a "leg up". That area is one of the few remaining so I submit it is especially important to bolster and increase that lead if we are to remain economically viable in this new global economy.

If you'd like to know more see

WhiteHouse Initiative

and

New Alloy for Cooling

as good starting spots.

Please.... I urge you.... don't cave into the desire to wave whatever flag you have in opposition. Make your own thread. I'd like to keep this thread as positive minded as humanly possible.
 
Old 10-30-2015, 01:27 PM   #2
dugan
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Very cool! Thanks for letting me know about this.
 
Old 10-30-2015, 01:37 PM   #3
Smokey_justme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Greetings
I took a chance in choosing the topic title because so often that phrase is stated sarcastically and while I don't want this thread to degenerate into a heated (and generally useless) political debate I want to counter some of the negativity that exists these days because I remember a time when parties worked together a lot more than today. The climate lately has been one of stubborn obstructionism and IMHO it does not serve public needs.
I have to say that at least this part is getting very common in many, many world regions.. Somehow everything is somehow allowed in the name of politics and no one cares for what the actual end-result is.. And it has gotten so bad that the majority of people simply refuse to find or see the middle group and are more invested in seeing their favorite people in office (or their most hatred people out of office) than caring about what has been done for them, what could be done for them or what should be done for them... It's just crazy..

Regarding the rest of your post, I'm not from USA and I'm also not familiar with the major breakthrough.. So I'll shut up about everything else..
 
Old 10-30-2015, 02:00 PM   #4
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I think Obama's biggest "sin" was to leave Guantanamo Bay open and full of illegally detained individuals. But, otherwise, he seems much saner than the lasy guy.
I think most of us outside the US find US politics weird and overly simplistic. Really, in no other country of the world that I can think of would the word "liberal" mean "wants lots of guns".
My own country of birth and residence "the UK" has similarly ridiculously-named parties but at least we have (nominally) three at least. Look to Europe and you see countries with three governing parties (not the same term-on-term) with at leastt he same number of opositions parties.
It's funny to me that "socialist" Europe seems a lot more democratic than "The land of the free".
By the way, the above is political comment about the US in general -- I know and have met very smart people from the US who see the political systems for the sham they are.
 
Old 10-30-2015, 05:15 PM   #5
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And, since I'm the one who made the comments about old pharts, I certainly would not want to be the POTUS, nor a Member of Congress nor any other senior official. "They can have it."

And, I certainly do not believe that Mr. Obama failed the Office which he now holds. In fact, I generally feel that he (and his wife and family) have very-sincerely tried to honor the office, and have generally done so ... even though I think it would have been more realistic to have created an "Executive Council" of, say, five people, instead of placing this overwhelming responsibility on just one man or woman. (Let's face it: the job, as-designed, "spits 'em up and chews 'em out." Just look at "before" and "after" pictures of anyone who's served there!)

There are exactly three ways in which the US Government as-designed is architecturally deficient:

(1) "Legalized (sic) Bribery." Even though the Constitution equates this as a high-crime alongside Treason, we do not choose to enforce it. It is human nature to want to accumulate money-equals-power, but it's a fairy tale (e.g. King Midas) that it consumes everything it touches. "The love of Money is the root of all evil." We basically cannot have a functional government in the presence of this ... and over 350 million people depend on that government.

(2) Lack of law-enforcement relative to senior offices: Get a DUI ticket and get thrown out of office. Instead of "Congressional Immunity," you are held to the highest standard of performance on pain of immediate disqualification (upon conviction after a speedy trial under due process of law). Bribery ... both taking and offering ("see 'ya later, 'K Street' ...") ... is a first-degree Felony that can be a capital(!) offense. But even a misdemeanor can compel an election in which the voters in your district must vote to forgive you (this time) ... or in which they can vote to replace you with anyone of their choosing. Immediately.

(3) "You're fired, that's all." Plenty of other world governments have this provision. No one accused you of any wrongdoing. If the people whom you represent vote that they just don't like you anymore, "you're fired!" This should apply to everyone in all three branches, as well as to any "fourth branch" official. You serve "at the pleasure of the general public," therefore you have to watch your back. Always. (The "Impeachment Clause" is hopelessly insufficient.) There is nothing that will "give a legislator (or a Justice, or a Judge, or a President, or ...) pause," than to know that he might be emptying-out his office tomorrow and that the government won't pay for his bus-ticket home.

I think that Americans must realize that, while the document that was written in that stuffy, probably smelly room was a fine piece of design by very experienced Englishmen, "it has deficiencies" that have become very big problems now that it represents 318.86 million people "from sea to shining sea." Every one of "U.S." are stakeholders in this enterprise called "the USA."

Various summits such as Conference on Constitutional Convention, held at Harvard Law School in September, 2011, as one of now-many organized efforts to discuss this ultimately-sober matter in an objective and minimally-political way. (Videos of that conference are available at this site.) Any human system of government "can have bugs in it," and I believe that Americans (in particular ...) are capable of fixing those bugs instead of continuing to live with them. The Constitution provides the means to do so even if the Congress does not agree. It is not an alternative to be taken lightly nor easily ... but I see it being taken.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-30-2015 at 05:30 PM.
 
Old 10-30-2015, 05:44 PM   #6
Smokey_justme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
(3) "You're fired, that's all." Plenty of other world governments have this provision. No one accused you of any wrongdoing. If the people whom you represent vote that they just don't like you anymore, "you're fired!" This should apply to everyone in all three branches, as well as to any "fourth branch" official. You serve "at the pleasure of the general public," therefore you have to watch your back. Always. (The "Impeachment Clause" is hopelessly insufficient.) There is nothing that will "give a legislator (or a Justice, or a Judge, or a President, or ...) pause," than to know that he might be emptying-out his office tomorrow and that the government won't pay for his bus-ticket home.
While I agree with everything else, in general, I do have to say this is not something that's implemented everywhere else or that would work in the civilized world... Sometimes you need to do stuff that people don't tend to agree with or things that mass-media blows out of proposition for a few days because they have nothing else to talk about... No one would ever be in office for more than six months and nothing of true-value would ever be allowed to pass as a law if the people could simply decide to kick you off just because they don't like you anymore (when in reality only few days after they won't care anymore or will simply laugh about it)... And that goes especially in the USA where people seem to be divided in (extreme) half(s) on almost any important issue..

Last edited by Smokey_justme; 10-30-2015 at 05:45 PM.
 
Old 10-31-2015, 08:37 AM   #7
sundialsvcs
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Can't agree with you on that, Smokey. Yes, a lot of people would initially get fired. And no, the process should not be easy. It could for example be based on the American idea of a "recall election." It should be a deliberate and sober act, but, especially in the beginning, it should probably happen frequently. It's especially important to me that every official (including Justices and Judges) would be subject both to mandatory term-limits and to recall.

But we certainly could go from a request for a recall election, to having had one and counted the votes, in (let us say) a month. We could allow State legislatures to initiate a recall immediately ... and oblige every State legislator in like manner to fear recall themselves by their constituents.

"You serve at the pleasure of the Public." "Anybody can be fired. Quickly."

And, as far as America actually being "a house divided against itself," I see in this nothing more than a media stratagem to sell advertising (and elections). It is literally "red-shirt / blue-shirt." Coke "versus" Pepsi. Two indistinguishable brands of the same thing, fighting to portray itself as radically different from the other brand and to gather "shoppers" to one at the exclusion of the other. Whereas, I think that the "shoppers" themselves are actually much more intelligent(!) than that.

Bear in mind that the "opinion polls" that would imply otherwise ... are also a product of the same media-engine. (They're exactly like the joke about the three-year old future accountant: "what do you want the answer to be?") They're used by media to "support" their strategy, which is actually no longer to report public opinion, but to manufacture it. And I think that most people in a country actually, quietly, understand this.

Nevertheless, I think that anyone who serves "the Public trust" should be more-or-less constantly kept in fear of losing their job. It's a good counter to "groupthink." You can't "serve the public" if you don't fear their reprisal.

The act is effectively an impeachment initiated by the public and with no obligation of prior wrongdoing nor conviction. "We just don't like you / trust you / want you representing us anymore." "If we put you in that position, we can take you out and replace you at any time. We intend for you to fear that possibility."

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-31-2015 at 08:42 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2015, 07:24 PM   #8
sgosnell
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I'm not sure where 273 gets the idea that "liberal" means "wants lots of guns". Gun nuts are almost all ultra-conservatives, not liberals. Only liberals are on the side of gun control.
 
Old 10-31-2015, 07:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
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I'm not sure where 273 gets the idea that "liberal" means "wants lots of guns". Gun nuts are almost all ultra-conservatives, not liberals. Only liberals are on the side of gun control.
It's only confusing if you've been suckered into USian politics.
 
Old 10-31-2015, 08:02 PM   #10
jefro
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I thought liberals wanted their personal guards to have guns only.
 
Old 10-31-2015, 08:09 PM   #11
273
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Quote:
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I thought liberals wanted their personal guards to have guns only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
It's only confusing if you've been suckered into USian politics.
Sorry, I find USian "politics" even more ridiculous than UKian.
 
Old 11-01-2015, 08:05 AM   #12
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This, also, is "media" influence. Media exists to sell advertising, not complicated issues like how to run a country. Everything, and everyone, is reduced to the simplest possible description ... and, every description is extreme.

For instance, the country is described as "polarized" between two extreme "colors," (appropriately enough) "red" and "blue." "Liberal" (or "Lib'rel") and "Conservative." One is toting an arsenal of weapons in their (red, of course, or cammo ...) pickup truck. The other is humming Kum Bah Yah.

And there is nothing in-between. "Coke or Pepsi." (Because nobody on Planet Earth drinks anything else. "Believe me. It's true because I said so.")

Media foments division and discord, and does so very loudly because it owns the megaphone. It issues "opinion polls" (and decides what those polls will say ... there are no laws) to support its chosen position. (And, it collects billions of dollars for doing so, quite a bit of that being public money.) But, that is not the reality of any country, nor of its people.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 11-01-2015 at 08:07 AM.
 
Old 11-01-2015, 08:38 AM   #13
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There are differences between what "liberal" means in each country... Politicians just like naming themselfs with names like "liberal", "democratic", "conservative" etc.... That's why, for example, right wing europeans (like myself) might not agree with what USA conservative part of the republicans (also right winged) might be doing and see them like assholes because of them wanting to protect guns (somehow an instrument that is only designed to kill needs protection), pro-life imposing, ultra-nationalistic views and general imposing of everything while, hypocritically complaining that the government control their life...

Of course, "liberal" or "conservative" can also mean different things from country to country even in Europe... The "liberals" in Romania are right winged, while the conservative (there isn't a party big enough named that way in Romania) religious, nationalistic-nuts are usually far left winged (or far right winged.. think UKIP)...

So it's hard to say "liberals"/"conservatives" love something on an international multi-cultural forum... But, to be fair, let's all agree that arming every school kid or their teacher isn't a solution to any potential mass-murder and anybody who things that we should give more instruments that only have a purpose of killing to random people are the dumb people... We can even extend the "dumb" label into "there's no global-warming" or "babies shouldn't be vaccinated" group... This will save us lots of time and effort in arguing about different political labels..

@sundialsvcs: The reason I still don't agree with your point about firing anyone holding a public office in-term without an argument (only that people got sick of that specific person) is exactly because I think you are right about media's "coke or pepsi" approach. And unlike you, I don't trust the buying public to be that intelligent and see throw what they are doing... We wouldn't have coke and pepsi everywhere in the world if people would be that intelligent...
 
Old 11-01-2015, 05:22 PM   #14
enorbet
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I'm not at all convinced mere intelligence alone acts as a buffer against self-destructive legislation. Education is at least as important and one of the reasons I know this to be true is from reading The Black Prince, and Mein Kampf while noting that they both recommend keeping the general populace ignorant and divided and ultimately misdirected into areas that have little to do with the governance that controls laws and enforcement as well as the economy that defines their lives. It is certainly worthy of note that the Koch family lobbies hard to reduce government funding of education.

Another important study exists in book form, namely

Capital in the 21st Century which, thankfully, is little more than a database of economic trends and their consequences (and therefore far less agenda driven or soapbox worthy) but has led three highly respected Universities (followed by several more) to declare the US officially an Oligarchy.

One of the reasons it is useless to lay so much responsibility, let alone blame, on any of our presidents is simply that through Supreme Court stacking and the Lobby System (and that's just the legal ways and means) the Executive Branch and even Congress as a whole have been nearly marginalized by the very wealthy. This is especially true now that most larger Corporations no longer reside completely within our borders and have become the equivalent of City-States, global powers unto themselves. While I'm focusing on effects here in the US such corporations exist all over the world and call many other countries Home so the problem is not by any means limited to just the US.

Furthermore, citizens of other countries are easily swayed by their hatred, jealousy, or simple bias of "not of my tribe" to behave just like US citizens and be divided from individuals who have the same values and concerns being just as misdirected away from the real enemies of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It is my fervent hope that the meeting of minds on a global scale made possible through the Internet can alter the course set by those that would minimize if not enslave us before they gain control of that, too, or make it superfluous by preying on people's prejudices and often misguided sense of Us vs/ Them.

Obama has let me down from what expectations I had of him but I see that it was not really ever within his power to make such deep change. Hopefully he has found a way like the above mentioned Initiative (and many more) to do as much as he can for long term gain for both the economy in general, education, and Joe Average. Such work certainly has it's major obstacles now that Journalism has been largely replaced with Entertainment and Propaganda.

Last edited by enorbet; 11-01-2015 at 05:24 PM.
 
Old 11-07-2015, 03:05 PM   #15
enorbet
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OK Friends here it is. I have tried googling for Obama's record in various ways and naturally I found many with considerable bias as to how these are reported. However even the lists by obvious Democrat leaners are educational since often they will tout some action as an accomplishment that I, and I must suppose others, see as a bad thing. So rather than just listen to the negativity, some of which has been so over-the-top ridiculous (eg: The whole Birther or Muslim thing) I encourage anyone with any concerns for the direction the US heads in the future to examine what has been tried and what has been accomplished even in this party hostile environment.

The most objective list I have seen is on Wikipedia and merely lists all the Senate bills he sponsored and co-sponsored and breaks them down as to the results .... which is remarkably few actually passed into law. It's quite instructive and here it is

Obama Sponsored Senate Bills
 
  


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