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Old 01-30-2007, 11:49 AM   #16
hand of fate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
I didn't say it works for you.
You did say that it works "always, all the time". Given that it doesn't work on my machine, there is obviously at least one time when it doesn't work, hence that statement is false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
5. Sleep mode that actually works.
... always, and all the time.
See, you did say that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
I didn't claim this was better - just that it existed.
You did list "Better" file navigation as a reason to choose Linux over Vista. You didn't say "File navigation exists under Linux". If you had that wouldn't be a reason to choose Linux over vista anyway, since file navigation also exists under Vista.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
(BTW: if you check the vista eula and the hdcp specs, you'll find that MS disagree with you about this "everyone has the ultimate right to decide what they do with their own equipment" opinion you just spouted.
I never "spouted" any "opinion". What I did was state a fact that no one is forcing anyone to install Linux on their own machine, so obviously users do have the choice of whether to install Linux. That is a provable fact, not an opinion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
The point heading are not mine.
Wherever this came from, the point remains the same. That list contains a lot of claims that are completely untrue, greatly exaggerated, or are attempts to disguise what is nothing more than the writer's own personal opinion as facts.
 
Old 01-30-2007, 12:26 PM   #17
PatrickMay16
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I agree with the hand of fate. Let's build bridges to Simon so we can show him how his argument points are no good, and how his original post is indeed misleading.
 
Old 01-30-2007, 11:14 PM   #18
aysiu
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Any statement that leads users to expect easy working suspend and resume from suspend on laptops is optimistically misleading at best and intentionally cruel at worst.
 
Old 01-31-2007, 12:36 AM   #19
Simon Bridge
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Quote:
Any statement that leads users to expect easy working suspend and resume from suspend on laptops is optimistically misleading at best and intentionally cruel at worst.
I agree - did you read the original article?

Anyway - I doubt users will expect this from this thread.
 
Old 01-31-2007, 12:53 AM   #20
aysiu
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I did read the original article. I don't see your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
... always, and all the time. Without requiring a laptop manufacturer to second guess your operating system. Linux has a dedicated team constantly improving all the ACPI functions such as sleep and hybernate.
That seems to give the impression that suspend and resume are easy to get working in Linux.
 
Old 01-31-2007, 03:05 AM   #21
Simon Bridge
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Ah... I see.
Perhaps I should emphasize the reliability of working suspend/hybernate, much as the article does.

You see the article gives the impression that it is easy in vista ... but, if the firmware doesn't support vista then it is impossible to get acpi going. Whereas, with linux there is at least a chance.

Thus the reference to "guessing your OS type" and the ongoing ACPI development.

The positive "spin" in the list is a reflection of the similar spin in the vista article.

Personally, I found getting suspend/hybernate very easy under linux: I installed Ubuntu edgy and it worked as advertised. Under the OEM windows that came with it - with updates - it still doesn't work.

OK: hybernate is much more likely to work well under an OEM Vista than under a random linux... but I did not claim that it wouldn't be.

Your personal experience notwithstanding, this is increasingly the experience of linux users. However: I await your constructive comments concerning how to rewrite the offensive passage to better reflect the situation as you see it. (Remember: positive spin, in-keeping with the spirit of the vista article.)
 
Old 01-31-2007, 03:17 AM   #22
Simon Bridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hand of fate
You did say that it works "always, all the time". Given that it doesn't work on my machine, there is obviously at least one time when it doesn't work, hence that statement is false.

See, you did say that!
It works on my machine on every instance in which I call it. Always - all the time. Never mind, I'm getting so much objection to this particular phrase that I'll have to change it. Perhaps remove it all together.
Quote:
You did list "Better" file navigation as a reason to choose Linux over Vista. You didn't say "File navigation exists under Linux". If you had that wouldn't be a reason to choose Linux over vista anyway, since file navigation also exists under Vista.
Nope - look at the title again... ten reasons to upgrade to linux"... look at what I said under file navigation... I said that there was a method for everyone. I did not say these were reasons to choose linux over vista (more like over XP - like the article I'm spoofing)... sorry if that wasn't clear. However, I think that the case for making linux file management a feature in linuxes favour is as good as that for vista. Do you disagree? Well, I'm sure many people will find the "improvements" in vista file management more annoying than helpful.

I would like to have a stronger message under file navigation though... as I have explained.
Quote:
Wherever this came from, the point remains the same. That list contains a lot of claims that are completely untrue, greatly exaggerated, or are attempts to disguise what is nothing more than the writer's own personal opinion as facts.
In other words - exactly the same as the vista article

I guess I'm going to have to run another post listing the facts and providing backup references for them. However, I did ask for suggestions to improve the arguments under each heading.

So, I take it you disagree with the proposition that linux can beat vista on it's own terms?
 
Old 01-31-2007, 06:23 AM   #23
Simon Bridge
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10 Reasons you should get Linux instead of Vista
http://apcmag.com/5082/10_reasons_you_should_get_vista
I have been accused of spouting my personal opinion as facts - or greatly exaggerating those facts which are present... of course, this is all in keeping with the spin-doctoring going on in vista and the article in the link. I am expressly following the style of this, and similar, articles.

I'm afraid that this kind of spin is very common in marketing. Someone selling apples from a barrow doesn't shout out "Quite OK apples, not many brown bits!" Do they? Nah - they shout out "Get yer fresh apples, they're loverly!"

I think we can forgive a certain amount of this, provided we are allowed to play the game too.

Further - in a short statement (single paragraph) it is not possible to be exhaustive or completely accurate.

1. UI built for the era of video and digital photography
... GPhoto (and varients) come with major linux distributions and support cameras out of the box (no driver disk needed). Hotplug your camera and you're away.

http://www.gphoto.org/
gphoto2 supports more than 800 cameras. The documentation suggests trying cameras not supported in gphoto as mass-media. Further, it is often the case that an unsupported camera will be detected as a different, but supported, camera... and thus used that way.

"Hotplug your camera and you're away." Is an exaggeration - there exist cameras which are not supported by gphoto and the mass-media method is not mentioned in the note. This could be construed as misleading... however, writing: "Hotplug supported cameras and you're away" would also be misleading about the wealth of digital camera support built into major linux distros. If anyone would care to write a short statement which does betterjustice to this, please do so and I'll happily concede.

2. Image-based install
... Linux images can be downloaded free of charge, either directly or via bittorrent. However, most major distributions are available on CD or DVD ROM from the distributor or from your newsagent on the cover of a magazine. You can even "try before you buy" with no risk by running demo versions from the media without ever installing a byte.

www.distrowatch.org lists locations to download ISOs for each distribution they cover.
The vista article claimed improved availability (implied: over XP). I suspect everyone will agree that linux beats vista here... except maybe for pre-installed versions.

3. Up-to-date driver base and better driver handling on installation
... linux (out of the box) hardware support is second to none. The vast majority of devices are supported by relatively few drivers which are included in the OS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux
"Common for hardware to work 'out of the box' in many linux distributions"
http://www.emperorlinux.com/hardware/?page=all
"No where else will you find out-of-the-box support for FireWire"
http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html
"Linux supports more devices (out of the box) than any other operating system ever has."

Of course, the catch is that vendors support windows. So the statement by itself could be construed as implying that your hardware will work in linux. Perhaps it could read: "Linux doesn't require vendor supplied drivers for most hardware". In fact, I think that is an excellent add-on.

4. Desktop search and search folders built in
... each distribution has an array of GUI-based and power-user search tools to locate and sort anything you care to name. (I'd like to improve this one.)

Googling around, it seems they are talking about something similar to Beagle. And a google-bar on the desktop... only it's the MS search engine. There are also traditional versions - CLI based slocate and its GUI front-ends.

5. Sleep mode that actually works.
... ACPI in the linux kernel doesn't expect laptop manufacturer to second guess your operating system requirements in their firmware. Linux has a dedicated team constantly improving all the ACPI functions such as sleep and hybernate. Where there are problems with this, they are likely to get fixed.

http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Fix_Com..._functionality
... this is an example of DSDT entries which have windows-only functionality built-in. Notice that the entries are for specific windows versions. One suspects that anyone upgrading an OEM-XP machine to vista may need to update their bios as well or face suspend/hybernate problems. Then there may be conflicts with premium content protection. Time will tell.

The same wiki also asserts that various acpi projects are under active development. In particular, for the acpi4asus project:
"if you have a recent Asus laptop that isn't yet supported by the driver, support may be coming soon"

6. Rock-solid laptop encryption
... Whole disk encryption with a variety of rugged keys has been available for a long time now.
http://www.bigwebmaster.com/General/...ryption-HOWTO/
The DM-Crypt man page etc.
DM-Crypt has been part of the device mapper from kernel version 2.6.4

It is very easy to encrypt parts of the file-system using DM-Crypt. Encrypting an entire drive (the root filesystem) is more of a pain - but howtos exist to take you through this step-by-step. However, the ease of the encryption method is not at issue here. The supplied heading says "rock solid". DM-Crypt uses any encryption scheme supported by the kernel. For eg. a standard example (i.e. Linux Magazine 72 p24) uses 256 bit key, CBC mode data, and supplies an sha256 hashed initialization vector.

Interestingly, if you google for "encrypted filesystem install", you get one entry for windows server (moved) and the rest are linux - with howtos for various encryption schemes.

7. Better file navigation
... and a navigation method for everyone

Note: the title isn't mine. In the original article the vista file navigation is touted as "better" without saying what it is better than. This is a common advertising spin. One hopes that it is better than XP - but they don't actually say that. Following this form, I can imply that recent linux file navigation is better than the past ones. Well, on would hope so. So I elaborate: there is a navigation method for everyone.

http://applications.linux.com/articl...&tid=13&tid=49
... a list of file managers in linux which compares them. By no means exhaustive. With so many to choose from (including the option of using a windows file manager in wine) there is bound to be something to suit anyone.

Of course, that's just an opinion... without actually doing a statistical servey, I cannot authoritatively assert the likelyhood of someone finding a search method they are happy with. However, with a choice of many vs a choice of one, it would seem more likely that one may find a file manager in linux one is happy with.

Then again: there's no pleasing some people.

8. Inbuilt undelete
... yes - breadcrumbed folders, following the web page model. Even favorite folders... if you really want. All practically from the beginning.

"breadcrumbed folders" looks functionally like the back-button and history you see in nautilus and konqueror (amongst others). The "undelete" option is usually provided by the "trash". this isn't really what they are talking about... the disk-space is free'd but a program keeps track of the file until it is actually overwritten (but I think I saw something like this in earlier windows).

If something like this is possible in linux, please let me know.

Usually this is referred to as data recovery or forensics... one can, in principle, "undelete" using grep for eg... but this says that when you tell vista "yes, I really want to permanently delete that file", it doesn't believe you. (For some folk I know, this is probably wise.)

9. DirectX10
... DX10 will not be made for XP. Good video will become impossible for you because MS says so. Linux uses the OpenSDL system instead - being open, it will always work.

I refer, of course, to analysis concerning the HDCP specifications. MS gets to disable your hardware if suspects that anyone on the planet has tried to use it for copying premium content.

10. Face it, you have no choice
... Linux is written for you. Vista is written for the multimedia industry. Who you gonna call?

Of course, choice exists: nobody is putting a gun to your head.
Funny how everyone "chooses" MS Windows (whichever OEm comes with their computer)?

Usually, when one says "I had no choice", we do not mean this literally. So I am going to be generous to the article and assume they mean it in this sense.

The note is pure opinion I'm afraid. You got me there... I've made a political statement based on two observations:

1. linux software is written by folk who use it, to "scratch an itch" (from, The Cathedral and the Bazaar")http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/ca...r/ar01s02.html
2. The MS Vista HDCP specifications of course, particularily the following commentary:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt

I feel I can afford to do this as a bit of a throwaway statement. I feel this is in the spirit of the article being spoofed... and how else can I follow the theme of using the article's own headings against it?

The same magazine also includes ten reasons not to buy Vista.
... hmmm perhaps I should provide ten reasons not to adopt linux, and see how many complaints I get?


Overall: there is a general bit of misleading here which still, nobody has admonished me for. All this is besides the point of linux!

"Linux isn't ready for the desktop" We don't care.
"Linux will never replace windows on the desktop" So what?

Linux isn't about marketplaces and shares, it is about freedom.
It works for me.
I'm sure it will benifit anyone who tries - even if they don't like it and go back to whatever they were doing before.

Lastly: some people may get their backs up because I singled out linux.
Let me say - these comments apply to various degrees to other open systems like FreeBSD (and other BSDs) and Solaris. (But what about FreeDOS or CP/M I hear ... OK, tell me... like anybody really cares what I say... I mean: what makes me so important? murmer, mumble urbm...)
 
Old 01-31-2007, 07:02 AM   #24
asimba
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@handoffate

Quote:
You did say that it works "always, all the time". Given that it doesn't work on my machine, there is obviously at least one time when it doesn't work, hence that statement is false.
Well by same token - does windows delivers everything it advertises - And does it Work EXACTLY the same way dude.

Whatever Windows has - EVERYTHING was INPIRED(read copied) from other OS's.
 
Old 01-31-2007, 12:56 PM   #25
alred
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i dont understand why people are so particular about and so fond of things like(for example) sleep/suspend/hibernate of their computer ...


.
 
Old 01-31-2007, 05:43 PM   #26
hand of fate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
It works on my machine on every instance in which I call it. Always - all the time.
You didn't specify that it only works "always, all the time" on your particular machine.

If that is what you meant, then why do you think anyone else should care about what works on your machine? What makes a difference to the user is what works on their machine. What works on one particular random machine that they will never have to use, belonging to someone they've never even met is completely irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
Nope - look at the title again... ten reasons to upgrade to Linux"... look at what I said under file navigation... I said that there was a method for everyone. I did not say these were reasons to choose Linux over vista
You wrote a list with the title
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
10 Reasons you should get Linux instead of Vista
and in that list was
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
Better file navigation
so yes, you did list "better file navigation" as a "reason to choose Linux over Vista"!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
... Linux is written for you. Vista is written for the multimedia industry.
Check this. Windows is built with the needs of users in mind, and is funded entirely by selling a service to the user. It's very existence depends on providing a competitive product that the user will be prepared to pay for.

Compare this to the way a lot of the Linux kernel was developed. Most of the code was done by programmers purely for their own needs. Most of the developers didn't even care about the needs of the end user, and certainly didn't have any real incentive to deliver the best possible product to them.

Last edited by hand of fate; 01-31-2007 at 05:51 PM.
 
Old 01-31-2007, 06:02 PM   #27
hand of fate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge
I'm afraid that this kind of spin is very common in marketing. Someone selling apples from a barrow doesn't shout out "Quite OK apples, not many brown bits!" Do they? Nah - they shout out "Get yer fresh apples, they're loverly!"

I think we can forgive a certain amount of this, provided we are allowed to play the game too.

Further - in a short statement (single paragraph) it is not possible to be exhaustive or completely accurate.
Just because someone else might have done ti once doesn't excuse it. We certainly shouldn't forgive this attempt to promote Linux under false pretenses.

It is possible to refrain from telling blatant lies in a paragraph of any length, as any decent, honest person would do!
 
Old 01-31-2007, 11:37 PM   #28
aysiu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alred
i dont understand why people are so particular about and so fond of things like(for example) sleep/suspend/hibernate of their computer ...


.
On laptops, the ability... to close the lid, have it sleep, and then wake up again when you open the lid... is an essential part of computing.

Do you know anyone who boots up her laptop, then shuts it down after leaving it? Then boots it up again?
 
Old 02-01-2007, 02:11 AM   #29
ecuas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asimba
True - Micro$oft is free in Vietnam/China/Pakistan and in parts of India. It is easy to find .
This is interesting. I havent heard of a free Windows system, ever.

All I know of is www.merawindows.com offering free Windows Vista Beta 2 DVDs if you answer a quiz correctly.

Last edited by ecuas; 02-01-2007 at 02:35 AM.
 
Old 02-01-2007, 07:30 AM   #30
Simon Bridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hand of fate
You didn't specify that it only works "always, all the time" on your particular machine.
Not just mine - here is a very old FAQ (c.2004) from linux on dell which states that suspend is easy to get working. But that's enough on the matter: Please check post #23. This entry has been altered since it is obviously causing too much confusion. Thank you for your input. If you would like to direct future comments towards the revised version, this will be appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hand of fate
You wrote a list with the title "10 Reasons you should get Linux instead of Vista" and in that list was" Better file navigation": so yes, you did list "better file navigation" as a "reason to choose Linux over Vista"!
Yeah, all right, you got me. But I also wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
The headings in each section are the suggested "reasons to get vista" in the article. (i.e. They are not my own: I have just chosen a short linux elaboration on them.) The commentary is why this is a strong point in Linux.
... I had hoped that people would realize that, by using the same headings, I was using the predefined "same turf" as vista promotions. Oh well... best laid plans...

also see the #7 entry in post #23. The thing is, you have linked two statements from quite different parts of the post in a way that is not intended.

You know, of course, that "better" will always be a comparative - and qualitative at that. This will always be an opinion stated as opinion, not an opinion stated as a fact. It remains only to show that it is a substantiated opinion. To that end, I assert that the wide choice is what makes it better. Presumably you disagree... that's OK: that's your opinion. I hope that post #23 makes a better case. However, I have also stated that I think this entry is weak and have asked for a stronger argument... can you provide one?
Quote:
Check this. Windows is built with the needs of users in mind, and is funded entirely by selling a service to the user. It's very existence depends on providing a competitive product that the user will be prepared to pay for.
Now that is your opinion. Can you substantiate it?
Quote:
Compare this to the way a lot of the Linux kernel was developed. Most of the code was done by programmers purely for their own needs. Most of the developers didn't even care about the needs of the end user, and certainly didn't have any real incentive to deliver the best possible product to them.
This is a very negative spin on things - not in the spirit of the original article at all. Nope, I don't think I can use this... especially as it is so manifestly against the facts of kernel development. Please try again.

A great deal has been written on the relative advantages of the open and proprietary models for development. That the OSS model works as well as it does is confusing to people who advocate the proprietary model - there doesn't seem to be any reason for these people to even want to produce good code.

It is beyond the scope of this thread to add to this mountain of argument. If you are interested in the foundation I am using for the statements, you should start with the links provided in post #23.

If you have any constructive commentary to add, please feel free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hand of fate
Just because someone else might have done once doesn't excuse it.
Once? Oh dear - you don't get out much do you?
Quote:
We certainly shouldn't forgive this attempt to promote Linux under false pretenses.
Promote? I don't think I need to promote linux here do I? Perhaps you think I have attempted to disseminate this stuff amongst folk who know no better - possibly maliciously misleading them into the perils of linux and OSS/FS?

Just so we know where you stand: the premise is that linux can beat vista on it's own turf. Do you disagree? (You have so far refused to state your position.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aysiu
On laptops, the ability... to close the lid, have it sleep, and then wake up again when you open the lid... is an essential part of computing.
It can be - especially people who move about a lot, and can need everything available quickly.
Quote:
Do you know anyone who boots up her laptop, then shuts it down after leaving it? Then boots it up again?
Yes: me. (Though I usually shut it down before leaving it.) I also know about a dozen people who use windows XP who do this too... because sleep is unreliable. In fact - don't actually know any windows-laptop owners who routinely use suspend. I do know a couple of linux-laptop owners who do.

I don't think these guys can be a representative sample though. I point this out to illustrate the error of argument ad hominem.

Interestingly, suspend to disk seems to work well where there is sufficient swap space. Suspend to ram is the bit most folk who have trouble, have trouble with. Either they don't have enough RAM, or their system doesn't refresh the RAM during suspend, or the bios won't let them in some other way. The debian manual suggests switching off particular bios power management features because they often interfere with the kernel ACPI - most people seem to just make sure they can boot from CD and leave it at that.

I have changed that entry in the updated version of the list. Can you suggest any other improvements (considering the stated aims, that is.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecuas
This is interesting. I haven't heard of a free Windows system, ever.
It is always possible to get windows for free... but Microsoft will call you a thief I have heard that MS tends to be slow moving on EULA violations in developing countries. While some see this as a calculated move to hook the poor folk on windows then reel them in when they are fully addicted, I suspect that the folk in question are just too poor to sue profitably.

Sometimes windows (or a windows upgrade) is available free (of charge but not of chains) as a "freebie giveaway" as part of a promotion. I don't think this counts in the above context - but someone else may, so I should really mention it. I should also point out that the original article doesn't claim that vista is available "free as in beer" anywhere.

On that note - I see that it is possible to get beer that is "free as in speech" these days... http://freebeer.org/

Last edited by Simon Bridge; 02-01-2007 at 07:36 AM.
 
  


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