With any post - if you see that it is in the wrong place, breaks any of the rules of the board or needs to be brought to a moderators attention, click the "Report this post to a moderator" link - too often we see a response which tells the original poster not to double poat (for example) but no one has told a mod.

I don't think I'd go so far as moderating the posts like that linmix, I sorta like the idea that the information here is unrestricted "Open Source."

As for the questions, I know I've answered a few *thinking* RTFM but unless someone comes across as demanding of everyone here who freely donates their time to help I try to avoid actually saying it. If your 2nd post on LQ.org is titled, "help me plz my comp broke" and you just have to flame Linux and the community in general, you are more likely to get an RTFM response though, so as Xav pointed out, learn how to ask questions the smart way. Maybe I'm mean, but I know I've jumped down a few poster's throats for having the audacity to come here and all but blame us for their problem and use the boards to vent on our community rather than provide some details and ask nicely for what is basically free tech support.

Another point is that I don't retain all the knowledge that I have to give. I'm not memorizing obscure iptables switches if I can find them in the man page in 10 seconds, so I may just tell someone to search the man pages for a specific term because I really don't have it in my mind. It seems rather silly for me to use my free time to look in the man page for someone else who doesn't want to read it themselves. It also should teach them that the resources they need are immediatly available via man pages or search engines so they do not have to post a question, wait for a response, post again with the specifics they didn't post originally, and wait again for a response every time they have an issue.

To anyone else who is temped to respond with, "search google" or, "read the man page" I belive it would be helpful to lead them more, such as:

It's in the iptables man page, search for "passive FTP"

or

http://www.google.com/search?q=search+terms+here

I don't know, you make me feel "small" all the time.

I try to use literary references, but yours are better than mine.

I try a witty riposte, but you've already gotten in there first with a tag line much more clever than mine. Especially some of the thread closing lines - classic.

I try to point them to a previous thread that will help them, but my post comes after yours that already lists the reference I posted, and three others.

I have to agree with you that the thrice daily "What Distro" threads are starting to get old. If they're starting to grate on my nerves, I can only imagine what it must be like for you. But if given in a properly diplomatic way, a "RTFM"/"STFW" response is often appropriate.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...d.php?t=407436

Amazing how a 2 year old thread can suddenly become a hot item.

I must admit to an occasional abruptness when someone asks, 'Why can't I play mp3s?' (my own pet peeve); ...and some people seem to take my tagline as a personal attack.

It's a way to stop me from just going nuts After you've seen someone's post history and realised that they just posted one thread in every forum, or see the Reports and notice that you have 20 reported posts to go through (not an exaggeration), you have to do something to keep the mind alive

Word to the wise: be careful wth the witty rispostes. A mod can get away with being a cheeky chappy, but a member needs to watch they don't step over the line.

If you can quite clearly see that the person is new to this whole thing, saying "go to this thread, try it out and report back" is helpful. If the person continually doesn't search, then RTFM is the most they will get.

rickh>
I love your signature.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to burden you. Give me a BOFH hammer and I'll be happy to put the smack down on trolls and spammers!

But if we give you the power, that'll mean you'll all miss out on my lovely closure notices.

I'll have to suffer for my art

Valid points all the way around from both sides.

In the interest of spreading linux - "Give a man a fish and you have fed him for the day, teach a man to fish...."

That's a wonderful sentiment, but when I first strapped on linux, a very helpful person on another forum tried to help me get connected thru dialup onto AOL. I still have all the documentation on my desktop - looking for drivers, installing kernel sources, make, install, etc. Downloading pengaol, then penggy, etc, etc..... googling, googling and more googling

The timeline for all of this was about 4 weeks.

Finally out of the blue someone mentioned that except for Linspire, AOL is not compatible with linux dialup and he had never heard of anyone getting penggy to work.

However noble, the first excersize was interesting but did not accomplish my goal. The second guy probably alerted thousands of potential AOL- linux users that they were headed down the wrong path.

Point is, the usability and therefore the spread of linux can be increased exponentially by constant exposure to solutions, even if supplying redundant answers is annoying to those who have already been thru it.

There is a statistical advantage to repetition. Yes I have considered the fact that taking the time to explain something simple keeps the experienced user fron addressing more 'interesting' issues, but i think the potential ability to spread the use of linux as far and wide as quickly as possible, takes precedence over an interesting but obscure procedure that is likely to affect only a few select users.

Quite frankly the internet is filled with dummies that can't fix a computer problem without some tech support guy telling them every little step. I see nothing wrong with getting people to actually become independent and self-relient on these things.

Quite frankly I refuse to buy the argument that "people who are new to the forum will have difficulty finding the necessary information... or understanding the community... etc. etc."

When I was new to Linux, I was all alone. I had no internet connection. I hadn't even an idea that there was even a Linux community. Yet, I persisted with Linux over the years (off and on) because I genuinely felt a need to learn and use Linux. I had a lot of frustrations with Linux initially (Red Hat 6.1/6.2), but that didn't make me flame Linux or rant in my first post here.

Even when I first joined this forum (and I was new to online forums at that time - this was the first internet forum I ever joined) I was aware that I should do my research first. I had no idea about "forum rules" or anything, but just the fact that I searched around a lot before I asked the first question here shows that you can be new to a forum, but you weren't born yesterday. Social rules don't require any teaching. Most people are already aware of these things.

The real issue is that these people who ask obvious questions need spoonfeeding. The number of obvious questions you see on this forum is quite amazing and the patience of the community is also quite surprising in regard to answering those questions.

I also think that many people think it's fashionable to ask "Which distro" kinds of questions, because they see others posting the same question and getting dozens of responses. Most of them seem to have already made up their mind as to which distro they'll be using but they seem to want some "attention" regarding their choice.

Searching the web isn't actually rocket science. It's amazing how much search engines have improved that you can almost be assured of hitting the right answer within the first page of your search 90% fo the time.

All in all, I don't think many people rubbish other people's questions. Even if it is an obvious question, most of us try to help, provided we see a genuine effort on the part of the questioner to obtain this information through other means as well. Helping is much easier when you're willing to help yourself and learn something in the process.

Quite frankly the world is filled with dummies who can't get from point a to b without some auto company packaging a ready made transportation device for them.

How awful that we're able to watch television without having to sync the horizontal output transistor.

Maybe no-one should fly on commercial jetliners until they are able to trim out the dump valve settings in the compressor stage of the jet engines before take-off. For shame!

Getting people to be self reliant is fine IF THE DOCUMENTATION is worth a s**t which it usually isn't.

That is why people come to the forums.

I disagree completely. Granted, most of the documentation(e.g. man pages) are very difficult to wade through, especially when you're starting out. However, many of the man pages, etc. are meant as references, and make it somewhat difficult for someone trying to learn to use the command(tar's man page is really big, too many options for someone trying to figure out how to make a *.tar file ). Quite a few of the people who aren't willing to try, shouldn't really be here. Personally, I think of Linux as still at the point of having a learning curve. However, while Windows has a learning curve, I tend to think that Linux tends to have a steeper one.

Not to say that it can't be done. I did it, but this community helped a lot. Yes, I occasionally got the "use google" answer, and when I tried that, I found the answer. Google tends to have the answer, and when it doesn't, someone here will(most likely).

I know, this is getting long, I guess what I'm saying is, it never hurts to try the other options, before, or even while you post a thread here.

Sometimes it can take a long time to find an answer on google or another search engine, if people don't like answering questions, what are the forums here for?

it can take a long time. As I read on fravia.com(ok, it's paraphrased)
generally speaking, when I google for something, I look at the first couple of pages of links. If it's not there, I refine my search terms a couple of different times. It often doesn't take me more than 30 minutes to find the answer. If I can't find it, I'll ask here, if I haven't already. Google isn't the end-all-be-all, but it is a very good tool. As I stated above, sometimes I use google after I post here, because I haven't thought about it, or someone told me to look there.

Well, there ought to be a REASONABLE expectation of return on your investment of time.

I don't think there is any rule, law or corallary in science, math, physics or philosophy stating that the amount of time spent on seeking a solution is necessarily proportional to the value of that answer. Just because something takes three days to accomplish doesn't AUTOMATICALLY qualify it as efficient learning.

Why is it that acquiring a piece of information from documentation and googling is 'learning' and considered working hard. But if you get that same piece of information from another user, it's considered being lazy?

In the beginning I spent days looking for answers, however nowadays I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for help after several hours of poking, prodding and searching.

Anyway, as an example, I do not mind repeatedly helping those new linux users trying to get connected via dialup. I have a very specific 5 or 6 step guide. I don't just get annoyed and say "go to linmodems" or "use Kppp". That doesn't tell the new user anything. Why shouldn't I give as much specific info to as many people as possible. That's the best way to help spread linux usability to as many people as possible - as quickly as possible.