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View Poll Results: Are you going to take the H1N1 swine flu vaccine ?
Yes 7 26.92%
No 18 69.23%
I don't know 1 3.85%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-11-2009, 05:25 PM   #286
Hangdog42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
Looks like the noose is tightening around Baxter's neck.

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvi...2_KILOS_ON_TV/

What a load of crap. This is why journalism gets no respect anymore. Someone with a decent amount of scientific training could recognize that the "reporter" in this piece is simply making stuff up. Furthermore, they don't distinguish between the contaminated research material and vaccines produced from other sources. Sheesh, and I thought this level of stupidity was confined to the US.
 
Old 11-11-2009, 05:48 PM   #287
sycamorex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangdog42 View Post
What a load of crap. This is why journalism gets no respect anymore. Someone with a decent amount of scientific training could recognize that the "reporter" in this piece is simply making stuff up. Furthermore, they don't distinguish between the contaminated research material and vaccines produced from other sources. Sheesh, and I thought this level of stupidity was confined to the US.
I don't know anything about science behind it, but don't those finacial connections worry you?

From the ESWI website:

Quote:
The European Scientific Working group on Influenza was founded in October 1992. This multidisciplinary group of key opinion leaders in influenza aims to combat the impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza. Complementing the core group of ESWI members are advisers, linking ESWI to the World Health Organization (WHO) in Geneva, the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin and the University of Connecticut, USA.
source: http://www.eswi.org/who-are-we/about-eswi

Their mission statement:
Quote:
To reduce the impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza in the European population by identifying and communicating with stakeholders and by facilitating interactions between them.

And those OPIONION LEADERS cooperating with their STAKEHOLDERS (baxter?) and WHO are sponsored by pharmaceutical companies:
http://www.eswi.org/who-are-we/eswis-sponsors

Fine, I don't know anything about science/viruses,etc. so anyone can feed me any scientific rubbish. But seriously, when you look at the above facts, one doesn't have to be a scientist to smell something rotten here. There's too much money at stake.

Last edited by sycamorex; 11-11-2009 at 05:49 PM.
 
Old 11-11-2009, 06:07 PM   #288
Hangdog42
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OH MY GAWD!!!!!!!!! OPINION LEADERS AND STAKEHOLDERS COOPERATING?!?!?!?!??! TO REDUCE THE FLU!!!!!!! What'll be next? Dogs marrying cats?

Come off it, this is completely normal and there is nothing evil going on here. The fact of the matter is that influenza is a global problem, and to be honest, a global solution is going to work a whole lot better if, I don't know, the globe cooperates?

This is how science works. People exchange information and cooperate on solutions. OK, sometimes they are arrogant jackasses, but other time science works the way it should. Of all places, I would expect a site populated by proponents of open source software would understand basic collaboration on nasty problems. However as that "reporter" you linked to earlier so vividly demonstrated, the scientific knowledge base of the media makes your average drooling idiot look like Albert Einstein.
 
Old 11-11-2009, 06:16 PM   #289
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Quote:
Dogs marrying cats?
No way I'll ever let my imaginary cat marry any dog, be it imaginary or real (especially a real one)!
Quote:
Come off it, this is completely normal and there is nothing evil going on here. The fact of the matter is that influenza is a global problem, and to be honest, a global solution is going to work a whole lot better if, I don't know, the globe cooperates?

This is how science works. People exchange information and cooperate on solutions. OK, sometimes they are arrogant jackasses, but other time science works the way it should. Of all places, I would expect a site populated by proponents of open source software would understand basic collaboration on nasty problems. However as that "reporter" you linked to earlier so vividly demonstrated, the scientific knowledge base of the media makes your average drooling idiot look like Albert Einstein.
I understand the benefits of (financial) collaboration, but IMO it's slightly like the producers of Norton/Kaspersky antivirus software were financing the media or some black hats (don't know which one would be worse).
 
Old 11-11-2009, 06:30 PM   #290
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FYI "stakeholders" is a term commonly used these days for "people who might have a stake in the outcome", which in this case for the flu would include everybody. It doesn't refer to any financial voodoo. "Opinion leader" is similar media speak for "load mouth who everyone listens to"; eg. just about anyone who gets airtime. Honestly, you people should get out more.
 
Old 11-12-2009, 05:31 AM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangdog42 View Post
OH MY GAWD!!!!!!!!! OPINION LEADERS AND STAKEHOLDERS COOPERATING?!?!?!?!??! TO REDUCE THE FLU!!!!!!! What'll be next? Dogs marrying cats?

Come off it, this is completely normal and there is nothing evil going on here. The fact of the matter is that influenza is a global problem, and to be honest, a global solution is going to work a whole lot better if, I don't know, the globe cooperates?

This is how science works. People exchange information and cooperate on solutions. OK, sometimes they are arrogant jackasses, but other time science works the way it should. Of all places, I would expect a site populated by proponents of open source software would understand basic collaboration on nasty problems. However as that "reporter" you linked to earlier so vividly demonstrated, the scientific knowledge base of the media makes your average drooling idiot look like Albert Einstein.
Nothing evil going on here, move along now people, move along ...

drooling idiot vs Albert Einstein ... what is the difference ? I don't know it ...
 
Old 11-13-2009, 01:11 PM   #292
mng
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharmless View Post
FYI "stakeholders" is a term commonly used these days for "people who might have a stake in the outcome", which in this case for the flu would include everybody. It doesn't refer to any financial voodoo. "Opinion leader" is similar media speak for "load mouth who everyone listens to"; eg. just about anyone who gets airtime. Honestly, you people should get out more.
.../bump

Saved me the trouble of making the same points.
 
Old 11-13-2009, 01:29 PM   #293
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Some more of the rampant paranoia ... just in case anyone was running out of steam.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/joseph-moshe
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/...pg1#pid7421549

And why it's "more of the same", posted by someone who, apparently, appreciates posting sources:

http://re0search.wordpress.com/2009/...ory/#comment-3
 
Old 11-13-2009, 01:30 PM   #294
FlGator81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
drooling idiot vs Albert Einstein ... what is the difference ? I don't know it ...
One can add.
 
Old 11-13-2009, 03:00 PM   #295
mng
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While I'm not a proponent of anything conspiratorial, I am a proponent of competence and logic. Not speaking for what is going on in other countries or even how the pandemic response and vaccination is being handled by other provinces here, I can say that I'm deeply unimpressed and disappointed with how Ontario has dealt with all of this.

There are four levels of Government wrapped up in this and, despite working for one of those levels (not in Health), and despite the fact that's it's a fallacy that "governments can't get ANYTHING right", it sure is pushing credulity to expect that FOUR LEVELS of jurisdiction won't screw things up horribly. Sadly, this is being proven out ... even here.

Federal, Provincial, Regional and Municipal governments all, of course, have a role to play. Each has its mandate and each is freakishly sensitive to not overstepping their own bounds into someone else's. It's not responsibility avoidance, it's legislated boundaries. So, the real problem becomes one of communication and cooperation. Ok - that doesn't need any further exploration, does it?

Theoretically, the framework *should* work. Fed's set overall policy and regulatory approvals. Provincial authority sets acquisition, distribution, communication and triage/priority. Regional authority is supposed to be a kind of coordinating/negotiating body between the Province and the Municipalities and between the Municipalities themselves. The regionals also set up regional clinics (as they do every year for the seasonal flu). Finally, inoculation delivery is the responsibility of the Municipalities.

You'd hope with that sort of top-down flow that everything should progress smoothly.

Well. Harumph. Not freaking hardly.

The feds keep on changing their minds about pregnant women and adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted. And now between one-dose for kids 3 - 9 or two doses. Now the supply is being held up, partially because the feds made the not unwise "err on the side of caution" decision to change horses midstream and go from all vaccines being adjuvanted to a supply of non-adj for pregnant women.

So the province is scrambling to secure, distribute, approve and test supplies - as well as set up their own provincial vaccination clinics.

There have also been confused communications around the why's and wherefores of getting the vaccine. "It's HORRIBLE", "It's mild", "It's HIGHLY contagious", "It's no different than seasonal flu", "It's attacking young people, under 20 - with the most hospitalizations occurring with girls, ages 10 - 14", "People 'most at risk' are being inoculated first - pregnant women, children between 6 months and 5 years and people under 65 with chronic conditions", "the Vaccine is safe and tested", "we will continue to monitor, because it is so new". I mean, really ... don't they ever just put everything on a single "reel" and play it all from end-to-end?

I'll even accept that contextually, all of the above statements might be true. They've done a suck-*ss job in rationalizing the confusion and addressing the real concerns.

1) Is it safe? Why? On a case and point basis.
2) Why are you continuing to "test". (Obviously because they keep on monitoring for all vaccine's as a matter of course, but they need to articulate that).
3) What are the societal risks of a very high infection rate, even with a low mortality rate?
4) Compare and demonstrate - SIDE BY SIDE and YEAR over YEAR, the seasonal flu infection, spread and mortality rates compared to (a) the Spanish Flu of 1919 and (b) H1N1A.
5) Acknowledge the limitations of the statistics - reporting, testing (both current and historical), including the methodologies and the rationale behind same. Discuss how comparing different era's is a challenge.
6) What are the risks of the death rate/100k increasing dramatically beyond what it has been to-date? Why or how might this happen? How will the chances of this occurring be mitigated by mass inoculations? What's the implication of under-inoculation on the likelihood of increased virulence?
7) How on earth do they plan on inoculating, say, 2.5M people (roughly half of Toronto, including the close urban sprawl) in a rationally timely fashion?
8) What is the effect of the program if it's not delivered until mid flu season? Late flu season? Factor in the period needed for the antibodies to provide immunity.
9) How long, after inoculation, does it take for immunity to kick in? What happens in the "ramping up" gap between inoculation and immunity? Is there partial protection? Is one's immune system more vulnerable since it is busy producing antibodies as a result of the inoculation? How long is the period of extra-normal vulnerability? Is the vulnerability the same as when you are fighting off a cold? Worse? Less?
10) What happens if you are already infected when you get the inoculation? Are there any risks from taxing the anti-body production centres while you are trying to fight off the virus itself?
11) What are the challenges in delivering the vaccine? Is there a shelf life? How long? Does it require mixing of two parts? Does the mixing require a Doctor? Why? Why not a pharmacist of a nurse? What are the risks if it is improperly mixed? Why is it not being delivered through the schools - as other programs have successfully done?


That's just pretty much a "partial" list. But *all* of those questions (and perhaps more) need to be answered (a) in one place and (b) in RELATION TO ONE ANOTHER.

If there are challenges to testing, delivering, mixing, injecting the vaccine, I suggest that we would all be better served if they just explained clearly what the issues are. Yeah, maybe it makes them look bad, but really, people don't look nearly as bad from having to grapple with rational challenges than they do from keeping quiet and screwing things up.

Oh ... and to support the rant: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...ekos-poll.html

Ya know ... it's pretty clear to me that there is a far higher incidence of illness and absenteeism. Surely a certain amount can be written off to "panic", over-cautiousness or even rational prudence. Even so, flu-like symptoms are almost certainly driving a lot of the absenteeism. It's difficult as a lay person to know, judging from the virtually indistinguishable-from-seasonal-flu symptoms, exactly when to hit the "I'm sick" button. I've heard from plenty of people at work about spouses/family that have been seriously/gravely ill this year ... far worse than season's prior.

In some areas, the health system is getting overrun:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...ick-notes.html

... and for those of you who would want to make an argument that PRIVATE health care wouldn't be overrun because people would be more reluctant to go to a doctor because of a "mere sniffle", I'd suggest (a) safety is the wiser side of caution, (b) if people really ARE sick, or are truly at-panic, the private system would be just as overrun as a public one - except their would be a ton-o-profits being made. In fact, you'd think it's in the interest (profit motive) of private enterprise - clinicians and pharma alike - to PUSH the vaccine (see: "Baxter" and BIGPHARMA)while AGAINST the interests (cost and resource controls) of public interests.


None-the-less, this all should have been handled so so SO much better. I guess this is why having large planning exercises has huge value. It's why the military does it. It's why businesses do it. Maybe this will turn out just to have been a massive, practical pandemic identification, control, mitigation and response exercise. I will buy into THAT as having value as long as there are serious lessons-learned and that they are applied.

So there. Rant over.
 
Old 11-13-2009, 04:05 PM   #296
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Whoa, pretty big post, and umm welcome to LQ. Just don't make the mistake of changing the Canada system to be more like the US one, I think you'll all regret it.

It's not really related (what is any more in this thread?) but it IS health related and clearly an attempt is being made to conceal Dementors from the Muggle population:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ss-levels.html
 
Old 11-13-2009, 04:28 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangdog42
OPINION LEADERS AND STAKEHOLDERS COOPERATING?!?!?!?!??! TO REDUCE THE FLU!!!!!!!
Isn't that a euphemism for "capitalizing on the current epidemic, and deaths caused by it, and if you wanna live buy OUR vaccine?
 
Old 11-13-2009, 05:15 PM   #298
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No, it isn't. See above.
 
Old 11-13-2009, 06:07 PM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharmless View Post
Whoa, pretty big post, and umm welcome to LQ. Just don't make the mistake of changing the Canada system to be more like the US one, I think you'll all regret it.

It's not really related (what is any more in this thread?) but it IS health related and clearly an attempt is being made to conceal Dementors from the Muggle population:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ss-levels.html
There is a reason that that paper is also known as the Daily Fail (also the Daily Heil). This paper is absolutely chock full of misinformation. Apply bleach after reading.
 
Old 01-12-2010, 05:38 AM   #300
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http://www.infowars.com/h1n1-gate-bi...h-head-claims/

yeah, I probably should not have rezed the thread, but it's yet another interesting article.
 
  


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