Glenn Beck accused Obama of being a racist, with even less evidence.

I used to think Curious George was the Republic's first dictator. Until I decided that Tricky Dick Cheney was actually the one in charge.

That's symptomatic of the cancer of ignorance growing in this country. Glenn Beck is an alcoholic, bi-polar, mildly schizophrenic individual who sees conspiracies around every corner and just happens to be blessed with a talent for showmanship. Yet his words are taken as unquestionable truth across great swaths of the Republic. Pity.

I didn't like GWB either..

Know why?

PATRIOT ACT! THE WAR ON TERROR! MILITARY COMMISIONS ACT! et al..

.gov is a bad deal these days. Doesn't matter which doofball "party" is pushing the main agenda, there's still that main agenda there, and how you fail to see that, I do not understand.


FDR was a bad dude, Wilson was a bad dude, Carter was a bad dude, Nixon was a bad dude, etc etc...

Bush's daddy was a bad dude, his son was a bad dude, and so is the Big O.

The sad reality is that all people look at the world through whatever coloured lenses they've opted to put on. Some are better than others at removing those filters occasionally and looking beyond their (our) own internal logic blinders.

So ... most people will accept one source and while, at the same time, reject another ... based on their personal belief set, the outcomes they wish to see and a host of other non-scientific (but entirely human) constraints, preferences and variables. One of the great wonders of the human condition is the ability to be wholly committed and entirely inconsistent - within the very same instance in time. Nevertheless, we all do our best to understand the universe around us. Some try to make the universe fit their view, others have their view accept the universe ... most of us are in between.

For my part, I'm accepting the validity of the H1N1A threat. It's not that it *will* be as damaging, aggressive, virulent or caustic as the 1919 pandemic, it's just that it has the potential to be so. And yes, in a preemptive statement, so do other viruses. However, not all have the same hallmarks, indicators and behaviours. So, for me, we know how 1919 behaved. We know it started out as "mild". We know that wave two was bad and wave three was profound.

I certainly accept the historical efficacy of vaccines and acknowledge that there are risks. I am relieved (at least psychologically, because intellectually, I understand) that injection vaccines are made with dead virus and nasal sprays with genetically-modified-to-be-benign ones. I am less trusting of the latter, because while the science certainly seems to be sound, it's still relatively new.

My concerns aren't with trace mercury compounds. We know that that chemically *similar* is *not* chemically *the same*. My concerns however, do surround the adjuvants and their potential side effects.

I have noticed that the US is not using the adjuvants and that Europe is. It's unclear if Canada is (first I heard yes, then no, then non-adjuvant vaccine is available for pregnant women and "young children" - the age of which is only sometimes identified and not in adequate proximity to the claims or reference made to them).

So what I am left to wonder about is:

• the safety of the adjuvants
• if there are different adjuvants being used in different jurisdictions
• the efficacy of said adjuvants
• the necessity of same
• risks associated and if the risks are appreciably different between adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted vaccines
• the reason for using them when it appears non-adjuvanted vaccine has the same efficacy

Some other time, I will properly launch into my own diatribe(s) regarding some of the subthreads here.

By the way, some posts which may have some bearing on the discussion:
http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009...ne-flu-scares/ (Hangdog et al ... this guy could probably use your help ... he's overrun).

Another tirade can be found here: http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009...luenza-hoaxes/

Another conspiracy angle I tripped over states:

From the WHO 2005 declaration: (excerpted) “ Under special pandemic plans enacted around the world..., national governments are to be dissolved in the event of a pandemic emergency and replaced by special crisis committees, which take charge of the health and security infrastructure of a country, and which are answerable to the WHO and EU in Europe and to the WHO and UN in North America.

It's all over the net. And yet, I couldn't find a single evidential link to support it though. One site cited (ugh - sorry) INTERNATIONAL HEALTH REGULATIONS (2005)which, in no way, supported the national governments are to be dissolved"quotation".

The document doesstate (among other things - none of which "dissolve national governments"):

(page 10)4. States have, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and the principles of international law, the sovereign right to legislate and to implement legislation in pursuance of their health policies. In doing so they should uphold the purpose of these Regulations.

However, opponents of H1N1A vaccination are given fuel by articles on sites with "official" sounding names, such as GlobalResearch.ca - the more so when articles (such as "The Vaccine is Far More Deadly than the Swine Flu") certainly seem to be well footnoted.

Another article caught my eye. I cannot speak for the source-site, but the article seems to have some credibility (I didn't have time to further google details to see if the claims have already been addressed). If someone that has a stronger immunology base than I could address the article Virologist to make his case for lab origin of swine fluit would be appreciated.

Lastly - a huge number of links can be found at: http://markthispage.blogspot.com/200...swine-flu.html

Have fun.

Now that really is interesting, I guess it fits well with the rest of the theories. They want to make a world government and world bank ... and this might be the way to do it.

Technically, right now, el presidente has the right to disregard the constitution. So, he can do anything he wants from martial law to ceding power to a global entity.

I can also imagine that with a lack of troops, the population has to be decreased and frightened at the same time ... I wonder what the best way to do that is ... maybe a virus. But then the soldiers need to be immunized. As for the proletariat's vaccine, it's harder to say what it will do, they could make it protect or the opposite. I don't want to flip a coin on it, I'd rather go away from people in case of emergency.

Also, if you want a rather good film that explains how the federal reserve and banksters have plotted against you and taken your money, watch Fall of the Republic by Alex Jones. It's probably one of his best, and least paranoid, I liked it.

Did you not read the very next paragraph where mng explains that that claim is completely unsupported?

I'm still reading that 82 page paper in order to verify it, and I didn't say that it was true, just that it could be and that it would fit.

And look, you don't have to be so much against me. I know that something big is gonna happen soon, there are far too many signs to disregard. It all smells to fishy to me.

You can do whatever you want until then, you can say I'm a creationist, a fool, a psychopath, whatever. But in the end, it won't matter what you say to me, it will only matter what you do for yourself.

To add my own spin to this comment...


Believe it or not, I remember a lot about grade school. Much like I remember a lot about everything I do. I'm "introverted" in that I don't really value conversation all that much.

Not because I don't like to talk, but because it's so easy to lie to people, and so easy to be lied to. Even if the speaker doesn't realize he/she is lying, he/she will still defend his/her position as if he/she knew what the hell he/she was talking about.

I've spent all of my life paying attention to my environment, and the people in it, and I notice that..

strange as it seems to me, there's just something seriously off about it all.

The people I meet, from all over(one of the benefits of being in Houston, is that I get to meet israelis, arabs, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Chinese, German, Czech, Slovakian, Brazilian, Jamaican, Indian, etc etc etc.. People from all over the world, I get to watch em interact with eachother. I get to see em in their fields of expertise, as well as in a totally informal environment. I hear their conversations, I see their friends, and I notice something similar between every single one of em, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is.

It reminds me of elementary school, though. I developed a technique for agreeing in a "meaningful" sort of way, with whatever anyone said. It established me as some sort of an 'ally' to people, almost immediately.

It's like that guy you meet, and start talking to, and damned if he isn't interested as hell in what you're saying. That's me, every time.

Doesn't matter if you just bought a baggie of coke from an 8th grader, and you want to brag about it. Doesn't matter if you stole the teacher's wallet. Doesn't matter if you ratted out the person who bought the coke, or stole the wallet. I was interested in what you had to say, and what did you say?

Well.. You tried to explain yourself, as any kid would, when questioned about your actions.. You used big words you don't know the meaning of, put there in some way, by someone obviously not yourself, and you tried to justify your actions.

Of course, IRL I agree with that, because it's interesting to me.. Not what I say, or what I believe.. I know all that stuff intimately, because it's mine, but what about you? What do you think?

Come to find out.. You really don't think much.. You repeat, like a parrot, that which you do not know intimately.


Fastforward 20 someodd years, and what do I see, doing the exact same thing as always? The same damn thing. Why am I so different? Why do I believe things, but others believe something they don't know anything about?

You ask me.. what is .gov doing? I don't know.. They're the kids in the school that put on a show, but never really talked about where they were going, or how they were gunna get there. I never got along with them too well, because their goals usually were going to get me into real trouble. I'll do just about anything, but I won't compromise myself in a situation. That's what was usually asked of me, so I didn't mess with them much. I understand such concepts as honor, pride, respect, and integrity. They, OTOH, oppose such concepts.

I don't deal with people like that.

What do I see now, though? I see mimicry in action. I see a lot of thieves, I see a lot of dishonorable actions, I see a lot of dishonesty among my peers, and I doubt any of them could precisely define integrity.

Even my old boss.. He recently was grounded by his wife, after she found out he'd been cheating on her with his operations manager, whom he bought an apartment in the galleria area of town, a brand new truck, and paid for her medications and hospital bills, all with the $$ from the business. Now he doesn't come to work anymore.. and he had the audacity to explain to me the concept of integrity..

He fired that poor girl, too. Got her real nice n comfy, livin off the head honcho, then.. OOPS, mommy found out! You gotta go!

Like children.. I see the same behavior in the schools, in law enforcement, and the rest of the government. Childish behavior, the same kinda stank that rubbed off on individuals I observed in school, when they began to associate with the people I knew better than to hang around. Real trouble.. Crisis of character, crisis of all the things that separate us from wild animals.

The only thing that's really changed is they have a paycheck, and now a significant portion of it goes to the government, who in turn, furthers their own agenda. Whatever it may be, it involves corrupting individuals, and dividing them from one another in as many ways as they can.

That's what I see, and that's how I know something is terribly off, but I can't quite put my finger on what. It's a bad deal, though.

so get ready.

Adjuvants have to go through the same sort of approval process as any other therapeutic compound in order to be used. So the level of safety is in the same ballpark as other approved medicines. Not 100% save, but not an evil conspiracy to kill us all either. In general, an adjuvant would have to do something useful in order to be included in a vaccine. If you're trying to get a vaccine approved, you don't put useless stuff in it. Along the same lines a vaccine without adjuvant has the potential to be technically safer than the same vaccine with an adjuvant, but without going through the comparison, you can't tell if the difference is meaningful or not. As for the reason for including an adjuvant, there are two. First, if a particular antigen isn't strong enough on its own to cause an immune response, an adjuvant can help. Second, even if the antigen causes a reaction on its own, you may get a stronger one with an adjuvant. That can either make a more effective vaccine or let you make more doses of vaccine by lowering the amount of antigen needed in each dose.

I'll have to look into that more, but from that article, his evidence is extremely weak. What is good is that he is submitting his research for publication, which will let science do its thing.

You know Dogs, you and I are a lot alike. Except, most people don't consider me an ally, because I don't agree. I almost always (99.999 % of the time) disagree with almost everything other people say, and although I don't usually voice my opinion in real life, you can read it off my face (another reason I don't play poker).

Also, I'm usually not interested in what other people are saying, it's always the same things ... beer, hangover, puking, chicks, TV, f'ing, drugs, lies, abuse, and other assorted stupid s***. I am usually very much detached from what is going on around me, in which time I think about more important things or just daydream. However, my ears are always open ... I pick up on certain words that trigger something in my brain and then I begin to listen. But, it's usually nothing of value.

I'm more of the kind of kid that was highly unpopular in all of school, not only because I did not belong, and because my thought processes are so very different, but also because I've always had this disdain in me towards the majority of people. Why ? Because of the reasons you stated. Most people are like children, and not normal children, but twisted, mean, sadistic, hateful, (severely) misled, (severely) dependent brats. And no, nothing changes much except their facade, inside they stay the same. Think "Lord of the Flies". They make me sick and sad at the same time. There are exceptions, of course, but they are rather rare. But what is worst of all is that they refuse to think, they almost fear it, or maybe they cannot think ? I'm not sure. But, when they do something very mean or stupid or sadistic, I try to ask them to think about their actions, to reflect upon them, and realize that they are wrong ... this usually leads to more violence, so I rarely try this anymore.

I am most interested tho, in people's actions, not their words. The great majority of their words are lies or nonsense. Their actions are something that I do watch carefully, because it tells me a lot about them. Call it body language, it expresses the truth almost 100% of the time, no matter what comes out of their mouth. The way they sit, and move, and their facial expressions, small twitches ... they can't stop those, and you can read them like a book. Technically, I can also read people from what they say, but it needs to be in greater volume, because most of it is necessary or unnecessary BS.

To tell you the truth, I don't know what to think of the virus or the vaccines. Mostly, I wanted to just throw it out there and see what people would say and how they would react. Again, in doing this I usually pick a side to argue for (often the one that is either poorly represented or the one that I disfavor) and argue for it as best I can. Then, in the end, maybe I'll get something from it, some new ideas or thoughts on the subject. Sometimes if I run a scenario through my head many many times, I notice something is missing, something I haven't thought about, and I need outside input ... and there are few people around me that can give me valid ideas or are willing to. I really do try to ask people to talk to me about it, but they don't want to. Maybe it scares them ... what might happen. Yeah, it scares me too, but I must think of it, and plan ahead.

Oh, and one more thing. My mind is not static, like that of most people. Most people have ideas and thoughts that they cling to and accept wholeheartedly, and although I do have some static ideas, most of my ideas are dynamic, one minute I can believe in one thing, and the next minute I can believe in the opposite ... just to try them out. Besides, I think it's a good idea to keep an open mind, I don't know what is true, but I try to get closer to what seems to me to be more true ... but if one minute from now something else appears to be more true, I have no problem migrating in an instant. Most people I've known, have a real problem with that. They have fixed ideas, things that they refuse to even question ... I question everything (you know all the companies that have been using this motto ... what a waste, they don't question s***).

Another correction to the info I posted earlier, thimerosal is NOT an adjuvant, but a preservative. It's kinda silly that they got that wrong.

This makes me wonder of the ever present possibility that some of these paranoid conspiracy theorists are actually CIA agents put there for a reason... this isn't the first time.

Another interesting bit:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...20750120091026

Looking at it from a different angle, a pandemic is just what they need ...

- it prevents people from gathering
- it gives them a reason to put the army on the street (which they can legally do now that it is an emergency)
- it gives them a reason and right to censor and limit the internet (the main source of non-mainstream news and ideas)
- they can quarantine or detain anyone suspected of having it (there are already plenty of these floating around the net)
- roadblocks to control transport (rumors and some images of drills involving these)

What more could they ask for ? What bothers me is the kind of power this gives them. It's all very very suspicious, so suspicious that it's scary.

It's true, they may not do anything with these new powers, but what if they did ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...#United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act

Not only that, but recently many bills have been rushed through Congress without a thorough reading by anyone ... I wonder what they might contain.

Yes, it certainly looks like a gradual plan to establish a totalitarian regime. Dictatorship by stealth.

Throughout this thread you have made it clear that the you think that the virus and the vaccine are part of some sort of evil government and corporate conspiracy to take over the world, however vaccination works against said conspiracy because if the population of a country has been preemptively immunized then the above listed topics become moot points.

As well, the whole "block off the internet" thing looks like a worst case scenario to me. If everyone in the world were confined to their houses because of swine flu and if they were all well enough to use the internet then possibly it could bring down the internet and so if this happened then we could do this.