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Old 12-18-2012, 05:06 PM   #46
Nbiser
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I would like to point out one last thing.......those who take guns away from the honest citizens are making the non-criminals suffer for the criminals. This is kind of backwards in my opinion, shouldn't the criminals and not the good guys get punished?
 
Old 12-18-2012, 05:16 PM   #47
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I have been in war and I think the games and movies and music are too graphic for anyone. We can't blame machines for actions. We need to blame society.

No one can protect children from such a kook. Everyday we read about a kook in some place in the world doing this. UK has way more murders per capita and yet they ban all guns. Mexico has an almost total ban on firearms yet 50,000 people a year are murdered. Everyday in the Arab world we hear about a kook who blows themselves up and takes 20 or 250 more with him.

Fix the mind and the machines will not be blamed. Like blaming matches for the cause of arson.

Last edited by jefro; 12-18-2012 at 05:20 PM.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 06:01 PM   #48
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
those who take guns away from the honest citizens are making the non-criminals suffer for the criminals.
That argument is a logical fallacy and is easily proven to be such by looking at the comparative statistics of first world countries.

The simple fact is that gun control works. You don't have to give up your guns completely. You just need to better regulate them. For examples of how to do that, you can look at the laws of pretty much any other first world country.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 06:07 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
UK has way more murders per capita and yet they ban all guns.
England, Wales included, compared to the US: murders per capita in the US about 5.7 to 8.7 times (depending on the year) higher
http://gunsandcrime.org/highs.html

Firearm related deaths per 100.000 citizens:
USA: 9.20
UK: 0.25
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Rate of intentional homicide:
USA: 4.2 (total number 12,996)
UK: 1.2 (total number 722)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ate#By_country

Murders with firearms:
USA: 9,369
UK: 14
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...d-States/Crime

Again, just facts, no comments from me.

EDIT: Forgot this one, numbers on the situation in Australia, compared to the time before their gun control laws were implemented (because of a mass shooting, time to pass the law: 12 days):
http://world.time.com/2012/12/17/whe...#ixzz2FNYjNEeX

Last edited by TobiSGD; 12-18-2012 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Added info
 
Old 12-18-2012, 07:09 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
I have been in war and I think the games and movies and music are too graphic for anyone. We can't blame machines for actions. We need to blame society.

No one can protect children from such a kook. Everyday we read about a kook in some place in the world doing this. UK has way more murders per capita and yet they ban all guns. Mexico has an almost total ban on firearms yet 50,000 people a year are murdered. Everyday in the Arab world we hear about a kook who blows themselves up and takes 20 or 250 more with him.

Fix the mind and the machines will not be blamed. Like blaming matches for the cause of arson.
You mentioned 'kook'

Wasn't this man mentally unstable to begin with?
A psychopath or he had paranoid schizophrenia?

A mentally ill individual that is not medicated can be very dangerous!
 
Old 12-18-2012, 08:14 PM   #51
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Sorry, mixed up violent crimes and murder. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html

"Kook" goes back to mental health and overall morality of the public I'd think. It is very very hard to predict what a kook might do or when. Would the guy have used other means? Dunno.

I still feel that part of the deal is a lifetime of violent images on games and movies and music. The lack of outlet for violent urges, the lack of a moral center and general honesty. All of that means something to a sane person but little to a crazy one.

Last edited by jefro; 12-18-2012 at 08:20 PM.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 08:32 PM   #52
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From the linked article:
Quote:
“Violent crime in England and Wales has fallen by almost a half since a peak in 1995 but we are not complacent and know there is still work to do. “
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...7_Firearms_Act
Quote:
Following the Dunblane massacre, the government passed the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, banning private ownership of handguns almost completely.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 09:31 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
That argument is a logical fallacy and is easily proven to be such by looking at the comparative statistics of first world countries.
So, are you saying that just because some criminal goes to a school and shoots some kids, that we should take away or severely curtail the rights of an honest citizen that uses his gun for self defense??????
Quote:
The simple fact is that gun control works. You don't have to give up your guns completely. You just need to better regulate them. For examples of how to do that, you can look at the laws of pretty much any other first world country.
Does it? We already have some pretty hefty restrictions here in the US. Just to buy a gun, they examine your criminal record and you have to wait a certain period of time, this is for the type of firearms used in most crimes. Most of the criminals in our town have purchased their guns illegally, they have been stolen or traded between the criminals themselves. If severe gun control was enforced, the criminals would still have guns. Look at Mexico. And if they didn't have guns they would have knives, machetes, axes, ropes etc. The best way to keep people safe is to let the honest citizens have their guns, so that they can defend themselves and others from the criminals. Also, what would prevent somebody buying a gun legally and then giving it somebody illegally, this is what happened at Columbine.

Last edited by Nbiser; 12-18-2012 at 09:34 PM.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 10:28 PM   #54
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The statistics don't lie. Look around. Educate yourself.
 
Old 12-18-2012, 10:32 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbiser View Post
Does it? We already have some pretty hefty restrictions here in the US. Just to buy a gun, they examine your criminal record and you have to wait a certain period of time, this is for the type of firearms used in most crimes. Most of the criminals in our town have purchased their guns illegally, they have been stolen or traded between the criminals themselves. If severe gun control was enforced, the criminals would still have guns.
Australia: Gun control laws, implemented because the mass shooting in Port Arthur, 1996
Number of mass shootings in the 15 years before gun control laws: 13
Number of mass shootings after gun control laws: 0
Gun related homicides down by 59%
Gun related suicides down by 65%

Quote:
Look at Mexico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico
Quote:
A common misconception is that firearms are illegal in Mexico and that no person may possess them.[3] This belief originates due the general perception that only members of law enforcement, the armed forces, or those in armed security protection are authorized to have them. While it is true that Mexico possesses strict gun laws,[4] where most types and calibers are reserved to military and law enforcement, the acquisition and ownership of certain firearms and ammunition remains a constitutional right to all Mexican citizens and foreign legal residents;[5] given the requirements and conditions to exercise such right are fulfilled in accordance to the law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Mexico
Quote:
The private sale of "non-military" firearms, however, is unregulated, and while these firearms are supposed to be registered with the government, in practice this is widely ignored. Laws dealing with the possession of "non-military" firearms are left to the states. Generally, "non-military" firearms may be kept in the home, but a license is required to carry them outside the home. President Felipe Calderón has recently called attention to the alleged problem of the smuggling of guns from the United States into Mexico, guns which are easily available both legally and illegally in the United States, and has called for increased cooperation from the United States to stop this illegal weapons trafficking.[71][72] In the five years prior to 2012, over two-thirds of illegal firearms seized in Mexico that could be traced to a source, were traced back to the United States of America.
 
Old 12-19-2012, 08:07 AM   #56
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Since most mass-shootings are carried out with legally-owned guns, the argument "we (honest people) have to have guns to defend ourselves against criminals" is irrelevant in this case. The weapons Lanza used (Bushmaster AR15 rifle, Glock and Sig-Sauer pistols) were legally owned by his mother (his first victim).
Anybody who wants to own guns should undergo thorough psychological testing first, no matter what the US Constitution says.
 
Old 12-19-2012, 11:55 AM   #57
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But this case also illustrates that the weapons may be available to others who are not the reigistered/vetted owner. Also, the press is tending to bring up the mental health angle -I'd argue that many murders are comitted by pretty 'normal' people who would not stand out in any screening process. One must only remember the last time one said something in anger and later regretted it, to have an idea of how close a really 'normal' person might be to carrying out such a crime. Even worse, when someone else has started such a scene, the reaction of regular folks who are near and armed are likely to be very unpredictable and not well-reasoned. Should you kill this guy simply because he has a gun in his hand? What if it's a toy gun?
 
Old 12-19-2012, 12:06 PM   #58
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Psychological screening is a good idea, but a normal sane person can go cuckoo in the future. Gun control is a very complex issue with many variables and those who were denied to have guns will get them from the black market. My feelings on guns is what many have heard.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
 
Old 12-19-2012, 12:42 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1234567 View Post
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/c...183813221.html
Quote:
In Israel, it used to be that all soldiers would take the guns home with them. Now they have to leave them on base. Over the years they've done this -- it began, I think, in 2006 -- there's been a 60 percent decrease in suicide on weekends among IDS soldiers. And it did not correspond to an increase in weekday suicide. People think suicide is an impulse that exists and builds. This shows that doesn't happen. The impulse to suicide is transitory. Someone with access to a gun at that moment may commit suicide, but if not, they may not.
 
Old 12-19-2012, 04:02 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
Since most mass-shootings are carried out with legally-owned guns, the argument "we (honest people) have to have guns to defend ourselves against criminals" is irrelevant in this case. The weapons Lanza used (Bushmaster AR15 rifle, Glock and Sig-Sauer pistols) were legally owned by his mother (his first victim).
Anybody who wants to own guns should undergo thorough psychological testing first, no matter what the US Constitution says.
And surprise! they make it so if you want to own a gun you must be nuts. Amazing how that happens.

What do you mean the argument to defend yourself against criminals is irrelevant? It's totally relevant. As primitive and savage as you believe the U.S. to be we have laws that prohibit shootings. Why weren't these followed? Do you think this nut job cared he was breaking the law?

And before you go to the lame utopian dream of "what if guns weren't available?", they are there are millions possibly a billion of them in the US. Pandora's box is opened there isn't a way to shove everything back in.

Last edited by Blinker_Fluid; 12-19-2012 at 04:03 PM.
 
  


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