Ridiculous EULA
 

My netbook arrived and I started to read Windows' EULA because I was interested in getting a refund. Then I get to this:
So I can only use the computer if I accept Windows' license? This is plain silly.

What they are trying to do is force you to give them money even if you use Linux. In other words, you must give them money even though you are not their customer. And there does not seem to be a court anywhere that sees a problem with that.

I read an article about someone who actually got a refund, can't remember which manufacturer but think it was Dell. Took hime three months, dozens of phone calls, numerous emails but he was persisten. Think he got $80USD. Here are some links about refunds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund
http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/59381

This one is about Dell, pretty funny especially the part about the customer didn't pay for windows, Dell did.

http://ask.metafilter.com/73031/Wind...-Windows-Vista

Here's another link, Dell again, with a happier ending:

http://nxadm.wordpress.com/2010/02/0...ws-refund-win/

If you really want to persue this, there is a lot of information available. I think that if you accepted the license, you're out of luck.

the refund is NO LONGER from Microsoft .But from the OEM
you get it from them and not MS .

Well, there are certainly courts which will refuse to uphold what they consider to be inequitable license conditions. And there is certainly a case for considering restrictive license conditions, which you don't know in advance of the purchase decision, to be inequitable.

However, even if I was a lawyer, which I'm not, I wouldn't venture any comment whatsoever on the situation that applies in the OP's legal jurisdiction without knowing what legal jurisdiction applies.

Or smart business tactics depending on your point of view.
Microsoft gets their OS installed by PC manufacturers and pays them to do so. The manufacturers comply otherwise manufacturers will be denied access to Microsoft technical information. The manufacturers get to offer a more attractive product to the market at little or no cost. Microsoft maintains and extends market share.
Without the Microsoft subsidy, your new PC could actually cost more with no OS installed.

IIRC, that was an issue with the Dell/Ubuntu offerings... The same machines were $60 - $80 cheaper with Windows.

Microsoft paying hardware manucaturers to install windows? I dont believe that.

What is far more likely to be happening is that microsoft will charge 'X' amount per-licence if all of the manufacturers systems are sold with windows, and will change more if the manufacturer sells systems with no OS or a non-microsoft OS.

There is also the possiblity that 3rd party 'bloatware' that manufacturers install on systems is offsetting some of the cost of windows. Some people even say its offsetting all the costs,but I dont believe that either....

Without any data from the manufacturers, its all just guesses though.

You could say that the extra cost that Dell charges is due to dell having to buy (then 'discard') a windows licence fo9r every system. Or you could say that its related to economies of scale. Or it could be due to slightly different hardware for the linux systems (and/or the cost of getting non-linux-friendly hardware going). Or its because of dell checked how much extra 'linux' assemblers/resellers like System 76, Zareason, etc. charge. IMO its most likely to be a bit of all the above.

The second link in my post above gives some interesting information about this situation and how that person obtained a refund.

Manufacturers all pay microsoft for the windows operating systems. As I recall from another situation where a person received a refund it was $79USD. That was few years ago and I don't recall which version of windows. I would expect what they pay is probably about half what an individual would pay if you bought it at a local computer store. I imagine it would also depend on the manufacturer and how many licenses or whatever they buy.

Moved: This thread is more suitable in Non-*NIX Forums- General and has been moved accordingly to help your thread/question get the exposure it deserves.

I stand corrected. That is a better description.
Perhaps this helps. From http://techrights.org/2007/10/29/exc...y-deals-linux/

When Microsoft lost the court case they switched the program to where if an OEM offers windows exclusively they get each license at a reduced cost. That works legally the same way as a store reward card or coupon since they are not requiring an OEM to be exclusive to be able to buy the OEM copy but rather rewarding them with a discount for being exclusive.
I have three laptops running linux that I don't use windows yet MS sold a license for each. its even worse for big companies that get a license on each new machine but then count their total of new and old machines and then but a site license for that total so those new machines in effect have two licenses. Thats in part why MS's sales numbers are so high.

Return whole system

Send an email to the manufacturer, stating why you returned it, and naming the manufacturer and model of computer you'll buy instead

Buy the other computer

Does anyone sell computers without Windows? I know that despite their success in the Ubuntu endeavor, Dell stopped... :eek:

They were available in India, last time I looked. Probably because the hardware market is very price-sensitive and software piracy rates were 65% in 2009.

Which is a neat example of legal gymnastics...

I disagee that it works like store reward cards or coupon cards though, if you go to a different store there is no legal way that the 'other' store can increase costs to you.

If dell was 'sucessful' with linux, then why would they hide the linux/free dos options? BTW, dell still does sell a fair few systems with linux, but last I looked you wont find them in the 'home' section. They are all in 'small and meduim business' or 'enterprise'.

Lots of places where you can get desktops/servers without windows. Hard to find from the corporaqte manufacturers, but there are there. Much easier to build your own, or get a custom speced 'white box'.

Laptops, much harder to get sans-OS. Back when it was easy to get DIY laptops, it wasnt that hard to build a OS-free laptop, but DIY laptops are much harder to find now. There is always System 76, Zareason, etc.. But they dont make the laptops, they just resell laptops maunfactured by sombody else...and you'll end up paying more from them than you would getting the same laptop, with windows, through normal channels.

Ah, you have discovered the meaning of "Microsoft Tax". If you keep reading you will find that you are only paying for the right to use Microsofts software for an undefined period of period of time, you are not in fact buying it at all.

How true
The MS tax is a LEASE
YOU DO NOT own that copy of MS windows 7 you are only paying a one time lease payment .

at least it is not a monthly MS tax payment .

I have a Dell inspiron bought with FreeDOS (and printed copy of GPL :) ) but that was like 2006 (and the computer itself is from 2005, bought it at discount cause the shop wanted to get rid of old stock)

In fact i can understand - This one was stuck for a year and nobody bought it, and when i asked why - "because it comes without Windows"

System76. I actually am ordering my next machine from them.
iXSystems - some interesting boxes, but not really the features I like.
Dell has them here, but seems like a pretty lame offering.

True, but not that different to 'buying' audio files from apple, amazon, etc..

If your in the US (I'm asume from system 76 you'd have to be in the US, UK or Canada) and for wantever reason dont want to biuld your own system, then have a look at ibuypower-

http://www.ibuypower.com/

Yeah, I know, they say 'gaming' systems, but thats just marketing. Lots of choices, you can spec everything in the system.

BTW, the XPS 7100 is part of why I REALLY dislike dell with its lame linux choices. The 'n' series (linux), is $649, X4 945, 500GB HDD, ATI 5670. The 'standard' version is $549, X4 945, 1TB HDD, ATI 5450 with windows. The retail price difference between a 5450 and 5670 is about $25, same with the price different between the HDDs.

So for an extra $100 you get linux installed, a slightly faster video card, and half the storage space. Sounds like a #$^&! deal to me.....

LOL. Well noticed.

AFAIK, all software (including GPL) licenses work this way - you get a permission to use software as long as abide by license agreement, but you never own the software. The only person that owns (means he/she can do anything with it without any restriction) software is copyright holder. Exceptions from rule are public domain code and probably MIT/BSD licensed software, plus some proprietary developers may offer an extremely expensive license that will grant you source code access and permission to make derivatives (which will probably cost at least few hundreds of thousands of USDs).

In this 7100 the 1 GiB drive is free upgrade

Still, the choice is bad, and i see no reason to buy a branded desktop computer. Buying standard hardware and assembling is so much better in any sense

Heh, I didnt notice that. But you mean TB, not GiB (or TiB, the 'i' basicly means binary sized, and we all know that HDD manufacturers dont use the smaller looking binary values)

I didn't say anything about an other store increasing costs, thats where the courts decided, you can't increase costs, only decrease. So Microsoft makes the cost $89 per copy of windows for everyone and OEM's who will sell windows exclusively get it for $80 (among other discounts) and marks up their profit. The non exclusive oem has to pay the full $89 then mark up their profit on top of that.

Actually, I was more looking at their laptops (otherwise yes, I build my machines). System76 had a really great technical helpdesk who was able to answer all of my questions (even down to the specific chipset for their firewire and intel cards). They are also assembled in California. I don't see any Linux laptops on iBuyPower, so I think I'll stick with System76 for now. Thanks though - always good to learn of another new vendor!

Removing 'discount' means increasing costs for all practical purposes.

I'd doubt that any of the big corporate manufacturers are paying anything like $80. Honestly, I'd doubt that even 'non-exclusive' manufacturers, or even assemblers who have do any serious volume are paying $89...

Nah, you wont find any linux laptops, or even no OS laptops at ibuypower. They just resell bigger manufacturers laptops (same as system 76 and zareason AFAIK).

Assembled in California? *blinks* I think I've seen somebody say that zareason desktops are, or at least were, but I've never got any confirmation on that. Neither system 76 or zareason list anything about it on the company websites, which sems odd if its true.

Big difference between removing a discount and increasing price. The list price is published, used to be $89. with the exclusive discount you could get it for $80 without exclusive you get it for $89, therefore no increase in price, just list or discount.

From a direct email question I had for them: " We assemble, load, test, and ship our laptops from California."

It is odd that this is not on their site.

I have no problems with M$ licenses anymore because I personally build and upgrade my own desktop.

If I ever buy a desktop, I'll buy it from system76 and replace the pre-install ubuntu with either arch, slackware or freebsd.

Lucky for you. Here there is no System76 to buy laptops from. And when eventually a Windows-free notebook slips to the stock then the marketers warn you that this computer won't work without them installing "operating system" (they dont say which, it is expected to be obvious) for additional cost. Those netbooks usually are a bit cheaper though (esp. after being in stock for a while)

Windows cost on a PC when you subtract what the anti-virus company and other bloatware subsidize amounts to around 0$.

Installing Linux on a Windows PC or a "blank" PC is just as simple.

So why would PC manufacturers bother to ship PCs without Windows???

We'll have to agree to disagree on removing discounts then. ;)

As for the '$80', maybe, but unless the manufacturers are getting huge discounts then 16pides post couldnt possibly be true.

Heard that before, and I dont believe its true with no evidence. If you have any evidence to support that idea, I'm all ears.

I personally think that is just an internet meme that has never had any hard evidence, or even much in the way of 'soft' evidence. The idea doesnt make sense when you consider that people have got refunds for windows as well.

Just to share my experience, I bought an Acer Aspire One (A150L) in 2009 (I think).
That time was available this version with Linpus Linux Lite (which was erased the very next day ;) ) and another version with Windows XP Home which was 60 euros MORE expensive.
Perhaps this is all about off the record aggreements between M$ and manufacturers, about supporting hardware etc. But that's just my personal guessing.

AFAIK Acer does. In these cases, it loads LINPUS.

OK

I just build my own Desktops/Servers. If I need a Laptop, I take over the wife's and buy her a new one. (Still haven't converted her over yet.) That way I'm not out a license fee, but I still have that sick feeling of supporting MicroS$%@.

You are. You pay for Windows license to run Windows on that computer. The OEM licence says that you cant move the Windows to another computer. So when you take her old one, you throw away $89 Windows licence and buy $89 new one included in the cost of new computer, instead of moving the existing one

Even in this case, it would be better to buy a computer without OS + buy once a Windows retail copy that you are allowed to move to another computer (and by the way supporting the manufacturers and resellers of computers without Windows installed)

I know that sometimes OEM's will get a little bit here and there from manufacturers paying them to install trail versions of software, but thats usually just big OEM's the size of Dell and it never amounted to anywhere the cost of a windows license.

I have 4 laptops with OEM XP licenses on the bottom, my netbook and my wife's have xp running (dual boot on mine but never use it). My Latitude d620 and c400 both have XP licenses and I've managed to find 4 different Dell OEM instal CD's and not one of the 4 will accept any of the two keys on the bottoms of the two Dell laptops so I couldn't even reinstall windows if I wanted to on them.
I've seen the same issue recovering a crashed server, restore from backup and reboot and it complains its not activated. Thats one reason I run Linux, my software doesn't need activation and licenses to run.