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Old 12-10-2005, 08:50 AM   #1
irfanhab
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Request for Comments on Linux article


I've written up a pieace documenting Linux's meteoric rise in the Supercomputing world, and identified some reasons why Linux can not repeat the same feat on the Desktop.

I invite your comment on the article so that I can get some different viewpoint from someone on points that I Identified.

The article is located here:
http://gridwatch.blogspot.com
 
Old 12-10-2005, 09:08 AM   #2
Mega Man X
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You started off pretty good, but lost a little consistence from your "Linux in 5-10 years time". Operating Systems are a pretty interesting thing. As you said, Linux grown extremely fast the past years as a server, there's nothing preventing it from doing the same in the next years to come either. What if companies start porting applications to Linux? What if Windows Vista turns into a great failure and Linux emerges from there? You can't assume things like this, IMHO.

I always use Sega as an example of how things can change. Sega, in the 90's was Nintendo's biggest rival on the 16 bits console war. After a couple of mistakes with Sega's new hardware, the company almost went bankrupt and today, Sega simply create games and even their Mascot(Sonic, the hedgehog) is available for Nintendo platform. Remember that Linux, on the other hand can't go bankrupt can it? (some distros could though, but we have totally non-profit distros out there as Debian).

Your last statement is also wrong:

"Although we say that Windows runs on more then 90% of the desktops, we can also say that MS-DOS runs on more than 90% of the desktops."

The most used Operating System today is in fact Windows XP. There's no DOS in Windows XP and it has not evoluted from MS-DOS by any means. It runs in a totally different kernel (WinNT branch) and so does Windows 2000.

Other then that, your review was pretty neat and I enjoyed reading it. Nice to see somebody using a blog as it was supposed to be used instead of telling what you had for breakfast. I'm also planing in creating a blog to review OS'es as well, besides some Unix tips

P.S: I've replied here, but I can copy/past on your blog if you want it

Last edited by Mega Man X; 12-10-2005 at 09:12 AM.
 
Old 12-10-2005, 11:00 AM   #3
tuxdev
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Quote:
One area where Linux lacks is the desktop market. Which of course Microsoft rules. I do not think that even with the most user friendly interfaces like KDE, Linux will be able to break into the desktop market. As desktop users think Windows to be synonymous to the PC.
The last sentence here is not complete.
Quote:
Their exist a plethora of highly productive software development tools for Windows
It is "there", not "their".
It is quite readable because of the column width, but it would be more so if you put a few more line breaks.
Comments not in the realm of editing:
The GTK toolkit is actually more successful in the Linux world than QT. It has a basic IDE called Glade. It also has pretty good windows penetration. Gimp and Gaim have windows based versions, for example. Personally, I would never use an IDE as such, cause I like vim to much. I only use the debugger in VC++.

Nvidia is not known to have a cumbersome installation process. It *usually* goes well to just drop out of X and start the executable. Slackware makes it even more painless cause everything is where it is supposed to be. Also, if the driver doesn't support a brand new video card or kernel, it will be supported within a month, and most likely in a week. The honour of worst proprietary driver goes to ATI, mostly taking into account the number of threads here about it and how long it took to solve the problem. In my personal experience, Linux has always supported my hardware.

This article is very good, especially cause of the unique pespective looking at the use of Linux in supercomputers. The desktop part of it is not particularly unique or goes with the theme of your blog, but it does complete the article and it is always good to read another take on the same chicken-and-the-egg problem.

It is always good to see a real blog used properly. If all the personal blogs were on livejournal or related, the blogosphere would be a much better place.
 
Old 12-10-2005, 11:20 AM   #4
sandwhale
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I too enjoyed the article. It's hard to tell where things are moving - I do most of my consulting to small business where several of my clients are seeing their ISVs switch from Windows based to web based. Vendors are stating factors like compatibility, ease of support, ease of updates for reasons. Examples include an app that would not run on Netware 3.x, so the client considered upgrading to the latest Netware - vendor said NOOOOOO, we have some problems with any Netware except 4.x - they are now doing everything via https:. Another vendor was sending out multiple CD set updates every 2 weeks to thousands of clients - I can't imagine the hours they spent burning updates - they now only offer access to their software via the web.

With that said - I think if this trend continues we're going to see a redefinition of the "desktop" and a decline in the need to have Microsoft on the desktop to run applications.
 
Old 12-10-2005, 10:28 PM   #5
irfanhab
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I appreciate your feedback

First of all I would like to thank you all who reviewed my article, and provided me with valuable feedback.

Now I have updated the article to include a section on why I DONOT think that the rise of Linux in servers and supercomputers might lead software developers to port their existing application to Linux.
The updated section is the second or third last paragraph. After the graphic card driver part.

I have also elaborated on what I mean to say that "linux may of morphed into some other system"
I completely agree that it is very difficult to predict because their are far too many factors to consider.

[QUOT]
Your last statement is also wrong:

"Although we say that Windows runs on more then 90% of the desktops, we can also say that MS-DOS runs on more than 90% of the desktops."

The most used Operating System today is in fact Windows XP. There's no DOS in Windows XP and it has not evoluted from MS-DOS by any means. It runs in a totally different kernel (WinNT branch) and so does Windows 2000.[/QUOTE]

I agree, that Windows XP is not based on MS-DOS, yes but MS-DOS is still part of Windows XP, this what I mean that Linux might have morphed to some other system, and I'm not talking about the kernel alone, I mean the whole GNU/Linux operating system. That it may be part of something radically different, and NOT called "Linux". But this is very dificult to say

Last edited by irfanhab; 12-10-2005 at 10:39 PM.
 
Old 12-10-2005, 10:55 PM   #6
KimVette
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Quote:
I agree, that Windows XP is not based on MS-DOS, yes but MS-DOS is still part of Windows XP,
This is untrue, as others already mentioned. It is true that Windows XP includes DOS compatibility, and a DOS-like command shell, but then so does Linux via dosemu, by that logic.

Windows XP is not based on DOS so please stop trying to perpetuate that myth.

Also, you did not cite your sources you copied directly from. In academic and journalistic circles this is known as "plagarism" and when I read the first few paragraphs of your article (I quit reading at that point) it was obvious I was re-reading press articele I have read in the past. Good job representing others' work as your own, though! Kudos!
 
Old 12-10-2005, 11:22 PM   #7
irfanhab
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Quote:

Also, you did not cite your sources you copied directly from. In academic and journalistic circles this is known as "plagarism" and when I read the first few paragraphs of your article (I quit reading at that point) it was obvious I was re-reading press articele I have read in the past. Good job representing others' work as your own, though! Kudos!
I've not plagiarised anything! I've only taken facts from the Top500 Lists of the past years, and quoted Joel's article, and I link to the article from where I've taken quotes. Other than that I have not copied anything from anywhere. Where have you seen parts of the article? can you quote those articles?

Quote:
This is untrue, as others already mentioned. It is true that Windows XP includes DOS compatibility, and a DOS-like command shell, but then so does Linux via dosemu, by that logic.
Again I'm NOT saying that WindowsXP is based on DOS in anyway. I'm jsut saying that DOS comes packaged with Windows XP, doesnt it? dosemu doesnt come packages with Linux distributions does it?
 
Old 12-11-2005, 04:51 AM   #8
Mega Man X
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The "MS-DOS" included in WinXP is not quite what it looks like. It's some sort of Emulator (<guess tags>) and it's there to keep backwards compatibility, as KimVette mentioned. If you try to run a few DOS games in WinXP, regardless of your hardware, the results are often laughable(with "heavier" games) in terms of performance (I've tried Rebel Assalt 2 once). Also, enviroment variables in 2K/XP/NT are treated totally different then Dos-based systems (Win95/98/ME). So it really has to be some sort of emulation for DOS in Windows XP, given the above.

Dosemu in fact comes with some Linux distributions as well(I think SuSE has it and Mandrake too. My memory is too bad to remember things like this though, ghehe).

Yesterday, I was testing a Zeta OS live CD (so far, I loved it, but way overpriced for me) and it came with DosBox installed too.

The whole point is, it's almost always necessary to emulate older Operating Systems. Be it because some application is still used or because of peoples like me, that sometimes get bored and wants to play Commander Keen again . And having some sort of Microsoft DOS on Microsoft's own newer platform makes a lot of sense.

Again, I thought the article was good. As suggested above, when quoting comments that aren't yours, provide the source . Never try to predict the future: I remember back in the 70's, peoples were predicting that we should have colonies on the moon and that we should be driving hover cars by the year 2000. A better and more logical approach should be telling why Linux has a more difficult acceptance as Desktop today: Is it believed to be difficult to install? Are there too many choices? Does it need some more marketing? What has to be done today? Those are much more interesting readings, at least for me

Keep writing mate. And keep us posted too . I think LQ.org has actually a forum for this kind of thing: "Linux - News, Articles and Editorials". I'm not familiar how it works or if you have to contact jeremy before posting or something. Take a look into the faqs I guess. Hope to read more of your articles.

Best Regards!

Last edited by Mega Man X; 12-11-2005 at 04:53 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2005, 02:37 AM   #9
irfanhab
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Quote:
The "MS-DOS" included in WinXP is not quite what it looks like. It's some sort of Emulator (<guess tags>) and it's there to keep backwards compatibility, as KimVette mentioned. If you try to run a few DOS games in WinXP, regardless of your hardware, the results are often laughable(with "heavier" games) in terms of performance (I've tried Rebel Assalt 2 once). Also, enviroment variables in 2K/XP/NT are treated totally different then Dos-based systems (Win95/98/ME). So it really has to be some sort of emulation for DOS in Windows XP, given the above
It seems that I was wrong about DOS morphing into Windows, thanks for correcting me!

I'll keep your tips in mind for future
 
  


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