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Old 04-17-2014, 04:20 PM   #46
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsfine View Post
I missed that story among the thousands of stories of criminal activity committed by the Occupy movement and ignored by the authorities.
The point that Germany_chris, enorbet, and others have made, that you seem to put a disproportionate amount of weight on "conservative media", appears to stand.

Last edited by dugan; 04-17-2014 at 05:12 PM.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 05:22 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
I've been wondering about the extent to which No Child Left Behind was responsible for the conditions that Johnsfine described in his son's school.
I'm having trouble even imagining a way in which No Child Left Behind could be seen as a factor.

It was a largely symbolic (never enforced) attempt to weaken the teachers unions a little and place some responsibility for outcomes onto those paid to do the job.

Most state and local governments were very effective at watering down the details to protect the teachers unions.

Since my children attended an upper middle class suburban public school, most of the risks of being blamed for failure didn't apply at all to their teachers. Failing to allow brilliant advantaged students to excel isn't a failure at all in our system, it is part of the plan. Failure (or success) is defined by the performance at the bottom of the scale, not at the top, even though our future as a society depends so much more upon the performance of the best of us.

Massachusetts did allow part of the testing used to compare schools to be done with a small subset of the students selected by the teachers to represent the school and to produce a grade that affects the teachers more than the students.

Such situations always make me realize that people I already disliked were a bit more evil and a bit less unaware than they appeared. My sons were each among those chosen every single time for such situations where success reflects on the teacher. Students who got higher grades and students who were allowed into more advanced sections, rather than punished with boring work, were not chosen. Teachers do know who the smartest students are, even when they pretend not to as part of holding those students down.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 05:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
The point that Germany_chris, enorbet, and others have made, that you seem to put a disproportionate amount of weight on "conservative media", appears to stand.
That cuts exactly the other way. I missed an event that might have occurred once vs. activity that was continuous in almost every Occupy location and yet here we have a group of liberals all agreeing that this represents MY watching of biased media.

You cannot honestly say that constant crime was not the norm in Occupy demonstrations. The main stream media struggled to ignore it, but it was in the background of so many scenes they cut away from. They struggled to treat the subset they were forced to show as an ordinary consequence of crowds gathering, but so many larger crowds have gathered for other purposes without that.
Anyone who went in person in Boston (only place I saw in person and rather late) could see how selective the media needed to be to cut the crime (and the anti-semitism) from the images shown on TV.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 05:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
The point that Germany_chris, enorbet, and others have made, that you seem to put a disproportionate amount of weight on "conservative media", appears to stand.
Yes of course and the following posts confirm that..

If you want to know what's wrong with modern education you need to take a hard look in the mirror as that's where it lies. It's not with a teachers union or an over-funded well meaning state or local education board.

Last edited by Germany_chris; 04-18-2014 at 01:05 AM.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 05:52 PM   #50
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One of my engagements a couple years ago was for an educational testing company, where I saw far more than I ever wanted to know about "No Child Left Behind," and about the technology train-wreck that has been a part of many a public school-system since then. It was, in my opinion, an extremely ill-considered and politically motivated law that should be repealed, so that teachers and administrators are back in control of their own schools again. The real world to which students must be prepared is not multiple-choice. This is one of a great many laws that were passed during this period to address "wrongs" that really didn't exist, but that turned out to be very profitable for a privileged few in "righting" them. We continue to be affronted by laws of this nature which continue to be passed.

As one quote I've heard is: "Within one generation we went from teaching Latin in high school to teaching 6th-grade remedial math in college."

But, once again, the situation's a lot more complicated than the media prefers to paint it. In my humble, there aren't nearly enough people getting into their legislator's faces, at every level, and insisting that their voice must be the one that is heard even though their pockets aren't bulging with cash. Our system at a great many levels is rotten with not-so thinly disguised corruption ... and the design of the system is unfortunately vulnerable especially to that.

---
Edit: Also note that the actual (sometimes, not so) implementations of NCLB by the various States varied strongly from State to State. Although the statutes were passed at the Federal level, they were not uniformly enacted (or believed).

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 04-20-2014 at 09:47 AM.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 08:49 PM   #51
enorbet
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@johnsfine

How dare you imply I am a Liberal! Politically and Economically I'm further to the right than a bicycle on the Autobahn!
 
Old 04-18-2014, 07:43 PM   #52
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Looks like the DA dropped the charges. That's more like it, but doesn't fix the bullying.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...rmentors.shtml
 
Old 04-18-2014, 09:30 PM   #53
sundialsvcs
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Nor does it address the tort that the school administrators committed against a child by recklessly demanding that felony charges be filed. These people should be fired and never employed again by any school system.
 
Old 04-19-2014, 11:18 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsfine View Post
{...}I missed that story among the thousands of stories of criminal activity committed by the Occupy movement and ignored by the authorities.{...}
No wonder someone said that criminals know their rights better than their wrongs and this is trouble with law. :/
 
Old 04-19-2014, 07:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
No wonder someone said that criminals know their rights better than their wrongs and this is trouble with law. :/
That might be true if laws (and economic policies) were

1) Actually written on principle and not to serve special interests
2) Enforced equally, regardless of race, religion, gender, or bank account, etc.

Add to this that on the street level, those hired to police laws, often don't have a clue about the principles of law and consider any oversight and standards, and in the USA this includes The Constitution, beneath contempt all the while they give "lip service". Police don't consider oversight such as The Constitution as a Holy Grail that they serve. Instead they see it as a huge pain in the ass getting in their way of "making things right" as they see fit. Policemen even Chiefs of Police involved in KKK lynchings are just an example at the extreme tip of the iceberg. When you add to this mix, the legislation of morality, laws regarding victimless crimes which require Undercover Police branches (by any other name The Secret Police) you get a "Good Ol' Boy" Network, not an instrument of Justice.

So who are the criminals when laws can be written and enforced by criminal intent? or just principles disregarded without consequences as long as there's no bad press?

Last edited by enorbet; 04-19-2014 at 07:50 PM.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 04:27 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsfine View Post
There are "easy" answers if you could get past the power of the unions. If better education were a goal, it would be easy to achieve.

Throwing money at the problem is proven not to work. Within this country there is inverse correlation between expenditures per student and quality of education. Across countries, the USA spends overwhelmingly more per pupil than any other country to get mediocre and declining results.

It is the same as the foreign aid we give (through the UN) to feed the starving people in North Korea. Those getting the extra money know that they only get it because the problem is so bad. So they know that letting any of the money go toward reducing the problem is a sure path to getting less money. So money sent to North Korea to feed the starving people never gets used for that and in fact provides the government with incentive to keep people starving. Money sent to schools to improve education is diverted to other purposes, so that the ineffective education remains as a problem demanding more money.
DUDE!!!!
you have the rowel of and power unions backwards
back when the unions had power they were the defenders of we the people
they stood up for the people fought for our rights like the right to safe food safe drinking water the right to breath clean air
the right to not be bulled by employers

If the unions still had power our jobs would NOT have been shipped over seas

If the unions still had power 80% of the work force would not have to put up with drug testing

If the unions still had power wages would be going up not down

the right objects to unions be cause they had to defend the interests of the working people

here's what the unions have done for you
quoted from
http://la.aflcio.org/gnoaflcio/index...6-dce69756e21c

Let's get one thing straight...



Employers and Corporations did not feel generous and decide to give you two days off every week to have a social/personal life. (We now call them weekends). Corporations did not just feel like being nice one day and give their employees paid vacations. CEOs didn't get together in a board room and say "Let's give our employees more rights at work" or "Maybe there should be laws to limit our power over an employee".



Virtually ALL the benefits you have at work, whether you work in the public or private sector, all of the benefits and rights you enjoy everyday are there because unions fought hard and long for them against big business who did everything they could to prevent giving you your rights. Many union leaders and members even lost their lives for things we take for granted today.



The right-wing attack on unions is nothing more than ignorance, lack of education, and propaganda.



If republicans would rather support corporations instead of organized groups of workers working to secure a fair work environment A.K.A a union, I ask them to walk the walk as well. Give up every benefit and right that you use that unions are responsible for.



Complete trust and submit yourself to the corporate agenda you fight for. Play by their rules with no influence from democrats or labor unions to try to force rights among the workers of this country. Dedicate your life to their life goal of making your company more money than the year before. Just understand that this may mean sacrificing the union fought rights you enjoy everyday. I mean, you don't want to be a hypocrite, do you? Like bashing unions on your union fought lunch break? Which means if you practice what you preach, you don't get a lunch break.



Corporations use to work employees 80+ hours a week, offer no breaks, hire children, offer horrid, unsanitary work conditions, paid literally next to nothing, and even murder. Not murder with a pen like they do today, but actual murder. They basically did whatever they wanted.



This is what they were like before unions. Don't take my word for it, look it up. (Links at bottom of page). If we rid the world of unions tomorrow, who is to say that they won't go right back to the way they were merely 70 years ago? The GOP governor of Maine signed a bill to repeal child labor laws this year, maybe they are going back to their roots whether we have unions or not.



So conservatives, please practice what you preach and give up all these rights and leave the umbrella of these laws for they were brought to you by unions...



36 Reasons Why You Should Thank a Union



Weekends
All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks
Paid Vacation
FMLA
Sick Leave
Social Security
Minimum Wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)
8-Hour Work Day
Overtime Pay
Child Labor Laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40 Hour Work Week
Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)
Unemployment Insurance
Pensions
Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations
Employer Health Care Insurance
Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees
Wrongful Termination Laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Whistleblower Protection Laws
Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)
Sexual Harassment Laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday Pay
Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance
Privacy Rights
Pregnancy and Parental Leave
Military Leave
The Right to Strike
Public Education for Children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)
Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States

So will conservatives give up all 36 of these union fought rights? Will they stand by their rhetoric that unions are thugs and refuse to take benefits from these "thugs" or will they hypocritically carry on the diatribe that unions are ruining this country while enjoying their weekends and paid vacations?


Or...

Maybe they could just admit that while not perfect, like anything else, unions have done great things for working people that they use and benefit from everyday of their lives?

Maybe a conservative union-hating family got to have some of the best moments of their lives while on vacation from work, and they still got to come to a job still there waiting for them, because of unions?

Maybe a conservative can't wait for their lunch break at work so they can turn on the radio and listen to Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Back talk about how horrible unions are?

If you don't want to give up all your union fought rights and benefits at work, I understand. I don't want to either, that's why I'm pro-union and vote Democrat.

But maybe you could just admit that unions are not demons spawned from hell, and admit the FACT that they have improved your life in more ways than one?

Or am I asking too much?
 
  


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