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Old 04-15-2014, 11:54 AM   #16
johnsfine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
If the current state of affairs is idiotic at times, it's still vastly better than the "good old days"...
The middle class suburban public school my sons went to is far better than the middle class suburban public school I went to. There is far less bullying and generally less hostility toward the smarter students and less cultural bias against academic effort.

But I don't really understand why any of that is true. Certainly it does not come from the teachers. The teachers are far lazier than they were 45 years ago. The teachers are far more focused on rote "do it this way" teaching and more opposed to students actually understanding things. The teachers still side with the bullies against their victims. Where social studies teachers long ago focused on memorized dates at the expense of understanding cause and effect, now they focus on leftist spin and aggressively supress any understanding of motivations or cause and effect, because such understanding contradicts the leftist message.

The teachers make a clear exception for the Asian students who want to excel and permit that in ways teachers 45 years ago never would have. But that rule is solidly Asian only. A non Asian student, especially Jewish, getting ahead of the class is even more aggressively bashed back into conforming to the norm than was the case 45 years ago. The increased tolerance toward academic achievement is shown by the other students, not by the teachers.

45 years ago, large class sizes made it impossible to accommodate differences within the class. Today it is the leftist ideal of "equality" (equal outcome rather than equal opportunity) that drives the school system to constantly push those with the perceived advantage (better educated parents) down into the norm.

The overall improvements have come into the school from the parents, through the students. The teachers, the increased spending, smaller class sizes, etc. all have been factors making the system worse.

Last edited by johnsfine; 04-15-2014 at 11:55 AM.
 
Old 04-16-2014, 11:11 AM   #17
Germany_chris
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Some big broad generalizations being made in this thread
 
Old 04-16-2014, 12:09 PM   #18
enorbet
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While "a rose by any other name is still a rose" if you want to communicate that to someone you have to use language they understand. Teachers and Admins don't generally want to be bothered with problems from "underneath" as they have so many from "up above". They just want problems to go away. Bullies understand one thing - that they somehow gain what passes for respect when people fear them, implying a physical threat. I learned early on that the key to stopping bullies in their tracks is to never show fear, act fast and raise the ante way high before they've had a chance to pump themselves (and anyone watching) up.

As soon as I perceived some threat, and although it had to be flexible to meet the type and level of threat, I just looked them square in the eye and said, "I don't care. I'm ready to go to the Principal's Office, have them call my parents, or the hospital. Are you?" The most common response was laughter, writing me off as crazy... over-the-top. Once they were forced to think of consequences without actually and directly threatening them, they backed off, able to save face. This cannot be just bluffed. One has to actually be willing and I think we should be when someone threatens us. This can't be allowed or it will break your spirit, or that of your children.
 
Old 04-16-2014, 12:19 PM   #19
cascade9
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Looks to me like the poor student did everything right, its a systemic failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Forty years ago, this would have been dealt with far differently. The bullies would have been suspended from school, at the sole discretion of the principal, or expelled, perhaps with the nod from the school board. If the bullies were kicked out of school, they would have actually had to repeat the grade. And there would have been no question at all that the teacher, the principal, and the school had the authority to do this. "The law" would not have become involved, because no laws would have been violated, yet.
Bit of a rose coloured view of the past there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
They were far more afraid of "touching the human rights of" the bully, than of trampling on the person who – by the act of speaking up – "created a problem" for them.
You're hit part of the issue right there, 'speaking up can create problems'. IMO there are 3 big reasons why, plus lots of other smaller factors than come into play-

1- Lots, probably most, bullied people are marginalised in some way- racially/economically/socially/politically, or are 'ulgy'/unattractive, or even just in general intrests and outlook. Thats how I ran into some problems with bullies myself, I was meant to be into school team sports, not playing computer games, riding my bike and swimming in the river.

2- Any effort to fix the problem is an admission that there IS a problem. School administrators hate that, and its not too popular with many teachers.

3- In my experience, a lot of the bullies are 'upstanding students'...well, not really, most of them are as dumb as dishwater. But they are quite often in the football (etc.) team.....

Though much to my amusment, all the bullies I knew in school now have dead end jobs in a dead end town. The ones that have jobs anyway. There is also a major tilt toward drug/alcohol problems, abusive households, and financial problems. IMO bullies are one of the most likely groups to look back at high school and think 'best days of my life'.

*edit-
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I learned early on that the key to stopping bullies in their tracks is to never show fear, act fast and raise the ante way high before they've had a chance to pump themselves (and anyone watching) up.
That can work, and pretty well, but its hard to not be scared of groups of people. I dont know about your experiences, but the bullies I had problems with were almost always in a group...maybe thats because I was actually bigger than most of the bullies, maybe its in part because most bullies want an audience.

The few times that someone did try bulling me 1 on 1 did end rather badly for the bully. All those bike crashes made me more able to ignore pain than they were, and having a 10cm+ reach advantage helps.

But I'm not a good example, I was never really bullied until I moved back to county australia after living overseas, I had 'long' hair (it was past my collar LOL) and I'm by nature a outlier. Foreign accent, non-local, 'gay' hair and a dissenter. I hadnt of been the size I am I and very social for a misfit, I would have had huge problems.

Last edited by cascade9; 04-16-2014 at 12:46 PM.
 
Old 04-16-2014, 01:15 PM   #20
johnsfine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
The few times that someone did try bulling me 1 on 1 did end rather badly for the bully.
I was youngest in my class and very short for my age (I suddenly shot up to average height when I was 16) and I had no idea how to fight.

So if any bully had ever tried 1 on 1, I expect the outcome would have been just the same as 3 on 1. But when/where I was young, bullies weren't willing to risk it and I was never attacked 1 or 2 against 1, always 3, 4 or 5 against 1.

On one occasion, one of my sons did a decent job of hurting the ringleader despite being attacked 3 on 1 and being smaller than his attackers. But most of the times my sons were bullied were 1 on 1, which is a least a moderate improvement vs. the bad old days.

Last edited by johnsfine; 04-16-2014 at 01:20 PM.
 
Old 04-16-2014, 01:20 PM   #21
Myk267
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Nobody should be surprised that the government monopolies, this time working in tandem, offer surprisingly poor service.

Who would pay to have their kid bullied? Who would pay to have their kid arrested for trying to defend themself?
 
Old 04-16-2014, 01:20 PM   #22
Smokey_justme
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@johnsfine: In my country we have a saying for people like you: "Oh my God, he has the right to vote!"... Of course, because you live in America that gets even worse: "Oh my God, he has the right to bear arms!".. Take it any way you want..

@normal people: The article linked seems to describe exactly the problem, in my opinion. Everyone involved, once this awful game started, just found that it's more important to protect the other ones ass rather then the child..
 
Old 04-16-2014, 07:49 PM   #23
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey_justme View Post
@johnsfine: In my country we have a saying for people like you: "Oh my God, he has the right to vote!"... Of course, because you live in America that gets even worse: "Oh my God, he has the right to bear arms!".. Take it any way you want..
Would you kindly expand and clarify? I don't want to jump to conclusions, but as far as I can tell johnsfine was bullied, not the bully, yet it seems like you are castigating him. Am I mistaken?

We won't bother with the whole arms issue since that could take at least another whole and very long thread and has very different meanings in an urban vs/ a rural environment.
 
Old 04-16-2014, 09:12 PM   #24
frankbell
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http://www.post-gazette.com/local/we...s/201404160165

Charges are being dropped. From the article:

Quote:
Today, Mike Manko, a spokesman for the district attorney's office, said his office is not involved in the issuance of summary counts, but takes on the case at the appellate level in Common Pleas Court. The citation against Christian will be withdrawn at the April 29 hearing, he said..

"No one who is authorized to give advice on wiretap or school violation issues was contacted in our office by the school district or South Fayette police," Mr. Manko said. "Multiple attempts to contact the officer who wrote the citation have been made.
I have worked in large organizations. That is a polite, bureaucratic way of saying that the school district and the cop messed up big time.

And, as a follow up to my earlier post, here's a moment in labor history: http://www.denverpost.com/Opinion/ci...low-miners-and

Last edited by frankbell; 04-16-2014 at 09:14 PM.
 
Old 04-16-2014, 10:07 PM   #25
sundialsvcs
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Obviously, a lot of people "messed-up big time," and I would start with the school administrators, who (as I read the story) demanded that some sort of criminal charges be lodged against the boy. This was entirely an inappropriate action, and I think that it properly should cost a few school officials their jobs. It seems to me that they couldn't handle the situation, and that they were pretty much power-tripping, and neither of these attributes are appropriate when dealing with our community's kids.

And, as far as Smokey's comment – hey, best to just let it fly right on as the bit of humor that, I am quite sure, was intended.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 04-16-2014 at 10:13 PM.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 12:35 AM   #26
maples
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
2- Any effort to fix the problem is an admission that there IS a problem. School administrators hate that, and its not too popular with many teachers.
Wow. I feel really fortunate to be attending a Catholic school. I never knew that bullying was this big of a problem, because I had never seen it.

About those lazy, good-for-nothing [mod would edit], how do people like that even get the job? How does corruption happen? I feel really naive here, but if someone's not doing their job, don't they usually get fired? When did that practice stop and let all these horrible people infect the system? I feel like even Windows is more secure about infections.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 04:56 AM   #27
Smokey_justme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Would you kindly expand and clarify? I don't want to jump to conclusions, but as far as I can tell johnsfine was bullied, not the bully, yet it seems like you are castigating him. Am I mistaken?

We won't bother with the whole arms issue since that could take at least another whole and very long thread and has very different meanings in an urban vs/ a rural environment.
I wasn't talking about his bullied past or his sons bullied past..
Rather I was making a reference about his quite agressive attempt to push this on to the shoulders of a political party, while even he admited it's an old problem thus making this a fail for the whole political communities involved in the last decades in the US educational system and judiciary system (which, in this case, both failed).
I begun to explain in detail what those "quotes" meant in my mind, but I deleted the paragraph while writing this post because it could have been viewd as a start for a political was or as a "gun-control" discussion, and I don't intend to be part of such discussions (specially since I'm not American).. So I'll leave those comments to the understanding of the reader..

However, just to clarify, my point is that taking such an awful event and transforming it into a failure of current US leaders (because, yes, he actually mentioned Obama) is not only kind of idiotic, it's actually downsizing the mistakes of the people that we're actually involved and failed at their jobs (and even at common-sense) and downsizing the failure of all legislative members over the years, putting them in just one target.. As a direct result, he (johnsfine) can (and probably will) actually affect other peoples lives with such primitive few of facts..

Just to be clear it's not my actual intend to start a political war here -- I was actually bothered exactly because political views we're aggressively expressed and thus commented at the fact -- so let's leave it at this, please..
 
Old 04-17-2014, 05:34 AM   #28
Germany_chris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey_justme View Post
I wasn't talking about his bullied past or his sons bullied past..
Rather I was making a reference about his quite agressive attempt to push this on to the shoulders of a political party, while even he admited it's an old problem thus making this a fail for the whole political communities involved in the last decades in the US educational system and judiciary system (which, in this case, both failed).
I begun to explain in detail what those "quotes" meant in my mind, but I deleted the paragraph while writing this post because it could have been viewd as a start for a political was or as a "gun-control" discussion, and I don't intend to be part of such discussions (specially since I'm not American).. So I'll leave those comments to the understanding of the reader..

However, just to clarify, my point is that taking such an awful event and transforming it into a failure of current US leaders (because, yes, he actually mentioned Obama) is not only kind of idiotic, it's actually downsizing the mistakes of the people that we're actually involved and failed at their jobs (and even at common-sense) and downsizing the failure of all legislative members over the years, putting them in just one target.. As a direct result, he (johnsfine) can (and probably will) actually affect other peoples lives with such primitive few of facts..

Just to be clear it's not my actual intend to start a political war here -- I was actually bothered exactly because political views we're aggressively expressed and thus commented at the fact -- so let's leave it at this, please..
He's just repeating general talking points, it's fairly common.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 06:10 AM   #29
johnsfine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey_justme View Post
Take it any way you want
There was only one way to take it, as a childish insult from someone too worried about the flaws in his political beliefs to respond with anything other than an insult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey_justme View Post
attempt to push this on to the shoulders of a political party, while even he admited it's an old problem
The teacher's union in this country supported the Democrat party and was supported by that party 50 years ago, just the same as today.

The failures of our education system belong to the union and the party.

Quote:
it could have been viewd as a start for a political was or as a "gun-control" discussion,
I'm sure you have been fooled by the liberal press of the USA into false view of US conservatives. Most of the world and quite a few the the US have. The liberal press wants you to believe that everyone who opposes the corruption of the Democrat party and labor unions favors unrestricted gun ownership and discrimination against gays and the establishment of Christian theocracy.

Quite a lot of US conservatives oppose the corruption and the growing power of the government, but don't favor any of those other positions that the liberal press defines for the Republican party. Certainly the Republican party is not the optimal choice for an alternative to the Democrats. But the Democrats are so totally corrupt at this point that failing to choose the alternative is insane.

Last edited by johnsfine; 04-17-2014 at 06:18 AM.
 
Old 04-17-2014, 07:20 AM   #30
Smokey_justme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsfine View Post
There was only one way to take it, as a childish insult from someone too worried about the flaws in his political beliefs to respond with anything other than an insult.
I don't quite have a political belief regarding the USA..


Quote:
The teacher's union in this country supported the Democrat party and was supported by that party 50 years ago, just the same as today.

The failures of our education system belong to the union and the party.
See.. This is the kind of response from people worried about the flaws in his political belief.. It's no coincidence that, this kind of message, it is used by all major dictators or communist parties (see China or Russia for examples)..

Quote:
I'm sure you have been fooled by the liberal press of the USA into false view of US conservatives. Most of the world and quite a few the the US have. The liberal press wants you to believe that everyone who opposes the corruption of the Democrat party and labor unions favors unrestricted gun ownership and discrimination against gays and the establishment of Christian theocracy.

Quite a lot of US conservatives oppose the corruption and the growing power of the government, but don't favor any of those other positions that the liberal press defines for the Republican party. Certainly the Republican party is not the optimal choice for an alternative to the Democrats. But the Democrats are so totally corrupt at this point that failing to choose the alternative is insane.
I don't really follow USA press.. Moreover, the press is everywhere the same.. Some big-corporation will side with a party and invent bullshit just to kiss that parties ass and spit on the other one..
As for the world, with the risk of making a generalisation, they first dislike the USA to a degree (not really their citizens, most often the USA hipocracy as seen from abroad), but if they would have to choose, then yes, at least people from democratic countries (even those with a right-wing state of mind) would dislike conservatives (please keep in mind that I didn't say they would like democrats.. but they would dislike a party that tries to rule by force). The fact that you think a party that started most wars, and was involved in the passing of the "Patriot act" (that, for the rest of the world was and still is a shocking act against any kind of democratic process that involves peoples freedom) is one that is against government control, is hilarious..

But again, this is not about democrats vs republicans.. It's about the fact they both failed over the years to control and reform the educational system (as a side joke: probably the republicans thought it's better to let it be.. you know.. not to be accused of growing power of government) and the legal system... And now you have the results in the form of this kind of situations (which are not isolated, from what I can see).. Off-course, let's just blame Obama and liberals for it... Maybe buy the kid a darts game and an Obama poster to shoot at it.. I'm sure his going to be fine.. Let's not blame the principal, the police officer, the judge and the whole damn system that governed in the last decades and ended up letting them reach such decisions .. You do know that if this information hadn't made it to the mass-media, the child would have remained a convicted felon?.. You also do know that judges, police-men and even school principals aren't changed every time the ruling party is changed, no?

Bleah.. wasting my time..

Last edited by Smokey_justme; 04-17-2014 at 07:23 AM.
 
  


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