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Old 04-30-2011, 03:46 PM   #106
baldy3105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Somebody already pointed out that Microsoft's job is making money. One way to do it is acquire technology developed by others and resell it.
Indeed, its what MS has excelled at. But its not innovation by MS is it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
We'll never know. I do not think that being ruthless is bad, by the way, but that kind discussion isn't suitable for this thread.
Which thread is that? This one where you are losing the argument that Microsoft is not a corrupt monopoly that ships sub standard products because it knows most people don't understand that they have any choice?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Maybe. I do not have enough data about hardware development in 90s, so I cannot argue about this subject.
Seems to me that you're lacking data in a whole lot of areas. Sometimes you just have to accept that your preconceptions are wrong, especially when those preconceptions are mostly propaganda...sorry ...marketing, force fed to you by a corrupt monopoly.
 
Old 04-30-2011, 04:06 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baldy3105 View Post
This one where you are losing the argument that Microsoft is not a corrupt monopoly that ships sub standard products because it knows most people don't understand that they have any choice?
There were no such argument to begin with. This thread's title is "I had to post this". It isn't about "who invented what". Besides, it doesn't matter. An invention is useless until it becomes adopted.

If you wish to discuss whether Microsoft has innovated something or not, you're free to start new thread. I wouldn't join the discussion, though, because such subject is not interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baldy3105 View Post
Sometimes you just have to accept that your preconceptions are wrong
First I would need evidence indicating that my ideas are preconceptions and that my preconceptions are "wrong". Currently no such evidence has been given. To provide such evidence, you need to know what my ideas/preconceptions are (and currently you clearly have a wrong idea).
It is really unfortunate that some people cannot provide cold-blooded argument, and prefer to portray Microsoft/Windows as enemy of Linux or some kind of "evil incarnate". In my opinion, such position is pathetic.
Have a nice day.

Last edited by SigTerm; 04-30-2011 at 04:08 PM.
 
Old 04-30-2011, 10:41 PM   #108
Coresay
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry
 
Old 05-02-2011, 01:15 AM   #109
tiredofbilkyyaforallican
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@ sig if you really think anyone is believing your rhetoric give your head a shake. If you had even the slightest clue the truth about your precious windoze would shock you after all M$ was started NOT by innovation BUT by the THEFT of other people's work! This fact is widely known and by all counts ignored by the courts, and politicians in M$ very deep pockets. IMHO M$ is responsible not of helping the industry but rather hindering new innovations, where we would be without M$? Probably miles ahead of where we are presently.
 
Old 05-02-2011, 01:25 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredofbilkyyaforallican View Post
M$ was started NOT by innovation BUT by the THEFT of other people's work!
Wrong. Microsoft started its business with a basic interpreter for the Altair 8800. Its start with operating systems was with their own version of Unix, called Xenix. Their first great success with operating systems was with MS-DOS, which they legally purchased and not have stolen. They also have written Windows themselves and not have stolen it from anywhere. One may argue that they have stolen the concept of a GUI and windows from Apple, but then you have to say the same about Apple and Xerox.
 
Old 05-02-2011, 06:03 AM   #111
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baldy3105 View Post
Absolutely wrong. There is one key event that almost uniquely drove the dominance of the IBM-PC platform, and that is that IBM in effect OPEN SOURCED the hardware design allowing Taiwan, Hong-Kong and the like into the game. It allowed them to produce copy-cat hardware for little or no-cost licensing wise. There was a huge explosion in cheap PC's (I remember this, I was using a PC-XT with an 8Mhz processor at the time!) and Microsoft benefited massively from this, they effectively rode the wave that this generated while determinedly sticking their foot on the head of any competitor that got close to them.

For this reason personal computing became synonymous with Windows PC, the IBM-PC hardware platform and the MS Windows operating system, but it was IBM that made possible the advances in hardware, not Microsoft, they just took ruthless advantage.
A simplifiaction, but true IMO.

I was using x86 early on, from about 84 onward (no, I'm not as old as that makes me seem LOL). In 84, there was a lot more apple software and games around, by 87-88 the field had totally changed, apple was a much smaller share of software and games, the good ol 'IBM compatible' had taken over a huge amount of market share.

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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
For a start, Microsoft could have named their OS "doors".
Another scenario is that some other proprietary OS would have taken place of Windows - some Apple product, IBM product, or a product created by any other company.Linux still could happen, but because it was kinda late to appear on the scene, it wouldn't dominate market anyway.
Quite likely. However, without microsoft domination of the desktop marketplace its likely that there would be more of a diverse OS marketplace, and that would (probably) make 'bit players' like linux and BSD far more mainstream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
I also think that without Microsoft current hardware wouldn't have become that powerful.
If that is true, its only because of windows (possibly) creating more uptake for personal compuiter sooner, or computer use in general. IMO that was bound to happen sooner or later, personal computing had been growing since the late 70s.

You've probably got to thank the whole ecosystem in general, the big players in systems (intel, cyrix, amd, power PC, and even the 'server' systems that were, and remain, a lot more expensive than 'desktop' systems) for that. Without some compition in systems, the amount of power we currently have would not be there.

BTW, over the last 12 years or so you've probably to thank AMD for a lot of it. Without AMD, intel wouldnt have been pushed so hard to stay competitive, and IMO we would be stuck with 32bit (intel wanted itanium to be the 64bit system) and single core CPUs. I'm guessing, based on what I know, but think that without the competitors the current intel CPUs would be around 'core solo' levels. Just enough to stay competitive with power PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baldy3105 View Post
MS have behaved in an anti-competitive way for decades. This is not my opinion, it is the courts opinion. Competition promotes innovation, so MS have also been stifling innovation for decades. If MS didn't exist? Who knows what technological wonderland of an operating system we might have now.
I wouldnt go so far as to think that we would have a 'technological wonderland' but I in general agree.

Theres a huge list of the people that microsoft has screwed pretty badly...most of whom were (technically) 'microsoft partners'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
It is really unfortunate that some people cannot provide cold-blooded argument, and prefer to portray Microsoft/Windows as enemy of Linux or some kind of "evil incarnate". In my opinion, such position is pathetic.
I really dont like the militaristic or religious imagery ('enemy', 'evil') but I can see where people are coming from. Those sorts of terms are actually common in the higher level corporate mindset though.

As I've said before on this thread, using those sorts of terms creates an 'us and them' mindset, and it just pushes people further into corners. Thats counterproductive IMO.

I would say that linux is a competitor to windows, and that microsoft will what feels it can get away with to defend what it sees as its market. How far they will go to defend that 'turf' is all thats in question.

Last edited by cascade9; 05-02-2011 at 06:05 AM.
 
Old 05-02-2011, 12:28 PM   #112
baldy3105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
but then you have to say the same about Apple and Xerox.
Not really, the individuals that developed the GUI and mouse interface worked at Xerox went on to Apple and developed the Desktop metaphor for the Mac.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_graphical_user_interface

I'm not saying, btw, that using others work as inspiration is bad thing, its the hypocrisy of MS of taking all these idea from University's and other technological development centres that freely spread the idea's they developed (e.g. Xerox Parc, AT&T etc) using them to develop their own products and then have the audacity to attempt to squash competition with bogus lawsuits claiming theft of their idea's. Its the sheer effrontery of it.

Its a classic example of "do as I say, not as I do." Never could stand a hypocrite.
 
Old 05-02-2011, 12:44 PM   #113
baldy3105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
A simplifiaction, but true IMO.
Indeed, was making a point not writing a book!




Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
BTW, over the last 12 years or so you've probably to thank AMD for a lot of it. Without AMD, intel wouldnt have been pushed so hard to stay competitive, and IMO we would be stuck with 32bit (intel wanted itanium to be the 64bit system) and single core CPUs. I'm guessing, based on what I know, but think that without the competitors the current intel CPUs would be around 'core solo' levels. Just enough to stay competitive with power PC.
Absolutely agree, and as far as I'm concerned where hardware is concerned you can make all the same arguments in this thread but for Microsoft, read "Intel".

Historically they have been just as bad as Microsoft and if it wasn't for AMD we would be way behind the curve from where we are now. That's what competition does for you you see.

I have never called Microsoft "Evil" or the "Enemy" they are a business, doing what business, particularly big business, does. Carefully balancing on the knife edge of legality, occasionally straying far enough that the criminal system drags its ponderous ass into action.

But what I can and will do is always judge the people with whom I do business and vote with my feet. I have never paid for a Microsoft product since Linux became fully functional and have often bent the license terms of what I did pay for to the breaking point and sometimes beyond, hey, what goes around comes around. And I have always purchased AMD, rather than Intel.

What I can also do is speak up and challenge those who are still mesmerised by the slick and shiny giant that is corporate marketing and unthinkingly bleat out the polished arguments and catch phrases that have been hammered into their brains by skilful advertising.
 
Old 05-02-2011, 05:40 PM   #114
Mara
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As it moved to completely "Linux vs Windows" style, it's time to close it. If you want to continue the discussion, please move to the "Linux vs Windows" thread.
 
  


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