LinuxQuestions.org
Share your knowledge at the LQ Wiki.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices

Reply
 
Search this Thread
Old 09-19-2013, 07:47 AM   #46
tangle
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Smithville, TN
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 1,745

Rep: Reputation: 71

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Are you surprised? Even basic police structures do this whole time behind your and mine back. Afterall the 'excuse of security' argument never gets old or rusty.
Yes but wrong is still wrong. What is a man if he does not stand up for right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdx View Post
No, I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying when you live in a twisted Orwellian universe you must not rely on Cartesian concepts like right and wrong. If the NSA breaks the law, what are you going to do about it? Call the Police or write your Congressman? Better to complain to your bank that you doubt their ability to protect your financial security and get them to fight the battle. After all, you fight fire with fire, fight government with big business.
In America the People are the final arbitrators of justice. The Constitution is filled with checks and balances. There is even a section in there that was specifically written to deal with a tyrranical government. There are some things that should dig at a man worse than death. The yolk of slavery should be one of them.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 08:25 AM   #47
H_TeXMeX_H
Guru
 
Registered: Oct 2005
Location: $RANDOM
Distribution: slackware64
Posts: 12,928
Blog Entries: 2

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangle View Post
Yes but wrong is still wrong. What is a man if he does not stand up for right?

In America the People are the final arbitrators of justice. The Constitution is filled with checks and balances. There is even a section in there that was specifically written to deal with a tyrranical government. There are some things that should dig at a man worse than death. The yolk of slavery should be one of them.
A mouse ?

It just proves that the Constitution is nothing if the people do not fight to uphold it, and they seem to not care. Or rather they believe that "security" is more important than "freedom" and so they trade. But they know not who they trade with. They trade with people whose only wish is to have everyone in chains and they will do anything to make you think that doing such a trade is a good thing. Really, you are just their pawn. They manipulate everything around you, like a theater, just so you can believe it and go along. Well, go along, but I can see ahead, and I know where they are leading you. I won't be there when they herd you off a cliff.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 08:29 AM   #48
tangle
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Smithville, TN
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 1,745

Rep: Reputation: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
A mouse ?

It just proves that the Constitution is nothing if the people do not fight to uphold it, and they seem to not care. Or rather they believe that "security" is more important than "freedom" and so they trade. But they know not who they trade with. They trade with people whose only wish is to have everyone in chains and they will do anything to make you think that doing such a trade is a good thing. Really, you are just their pawn. They manipulate everything around you, like a theater, just so you can believe it and go along. Well, go along, but I can see ahead, and I know where they are leading you. I won't be there when they herd you off a cliff.
Agree 100% with you.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 10:19 AM   #49
sundialsvcs
Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 5,401

Rep: Reputation: 1119Reputation: 1119Reputation: 1119Reputation: 1119Reputation: 1119Reputation: 1119Reputation: 1119Reputation: 1119Reputation: 1119
Those "examples of how they spend our money" are chicken feed compared to: http://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com.

This site lists only the public contracts, only by the DOD, but every single day it amounts to tens or even hundreds of billions of dollars.

Furthermore: just Just Watch the Clock. See the twirling spinning numbers, moving faster than the eye can see. (Quick, how many seconds does it take for that dial to spin past all the money you will ever earn in your entire life?) That money's not being spent on roads, food, retirement, or schools. That money's being spent on an ever-growing number of never-ending wars; on domestic surveillance; and on #CLASSIFIED# number of programs that might not do anything useful at all but that spend #CLASSIFIED# dollars a second.

As long as there is no scrutiny, no reasonable means of legislative oversight, no one to safeguard the Public interest, then human nature will take everything that's not bolted down. Sure, it's done "in the name of National Security," but that doesn't actually mean that it's making anyone secure. In fact, it is quite probable that the status-quo is making the whole situation vastly insecure. But ... hey, who cares? "We've got ours. Let them eat cake."

Republicrat? Demoblican? Indepublicrat? Liberdemoblican? All of these are merely brand-names used by "the 0.00001%." Among the very richest people on the planet, all because of bribery. When there's that much money to be made, "just keep 'em confused and fighting each other, and keep stealin' their wallet."

Drive down I-75 toward Atlanta, GA (USA) some day, and you will see facial-recognition cameras posted every 1/20th of a mile. Is that really necessary? No, probably not. But someone got a vast, no-doubt government funded contract to do it, and the people who had the authority to approve it ... well ... "they $$ did $$ okay $$ too." And, once again, "no one will ever know." Except for very pesky people like Ed Snowden.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 12:17 PM   #50
Arcane
Member
 
Registered: May 2006
Location: Latvia, Europe
Distribution: random
Posts: 287

Rep: Reputation: 164Reputation: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangle View Post
Yes but wrong is still wrong. What is a man if he does not stand up for right?{...}
So in other words we should all commit suicide attack on those who oppress us? Bright thinking..very..lol. And no we are not mice - we are oppressed people. There is a difference. If we could fight something but choose not to then we can be considered either scared or evil or someone who doesn't care..good luck fighting even basic police alone..have fun with problems.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 01:21 PM   #51
tangle
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Smithville, TN
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 1,745

Rep: Reputation: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
So in other words we should all commit suicide attack on those who oppress us? Bright thinking..very..lol. And no we are not mice - we are oppressed people. There is a difference. If we could fight something but choose not to then we can be considered either scared or evil or someone who doesn't care..good luck fighting even basic police alone..have fun with problems.
I was speaking from an American point of view. But I am old enough to remember Poland in the late 1980's (believe 89). I wonder how different Europe would be now if they lived in fear.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 01:58 PM   #52
H_TeXMeX_H
Guru
 
Registered: Oct 2005
Location: $RANDOM
Distribution: slackware64
Posts: 12,928
Blog Entries: 2

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
So in other words we should all commit suicide attack on those who oppress us? Bright thinking..very..lol. And no we are not mice - we are oppressed people. There is a difference. If we could fight something but choose not to then we can be considered either scared or evil or someone who doesn't care..good luck fighting even basic police alone..have fun with problems.
I don't know who you are, but I have no clue why you or anyone else who is sane and not brainwashed/damaged would want to do that.

No, I was thinking of far more practical and realistic things like using their own weapons against them. Propaganda is their greatest weapon, because it allows them to control the masses. So all you have to do is counter the propaganda. Every time some tape recorder near you says something they heard on the "news" make sure to correct any errors in judgement, disrupt their "two minutes hate", and give them something to think about. This isn't always possible as some tape recorder are very limited in their functions (try to judge this beforehand or you will end up in a heated argument with an idiot). You can also apply to the political side, call congressmen, lobby, fund the EFF, etc. You can also warn people of dangers if you know where things are headed. It is best to try not to sound too much like a conspiracy theorist, so stick to things that are clear cut and easy to explain and demonstrate.

Most of all you should maintain your integrity. They want to break you mentally and they try to use your emotions to sway you. If you ever watch anything that is pure Pathos, remember that Logos is what matters most, and they are doing it for a reason.

Note that I'm not saying that you can win an this stage, because you cannot. You can, however, delay the inevitable.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 09-19-2013 at 01:59 PM.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 05:53 PM   #53
tuxdev
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jul 2005
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 2,014

Rep: Reputation: 115Reputation: 115
Less crypto FUD, please
1. AES is *fine*. It was designed in Belgium, and the constants used are well-understood.
2. Dual EC DRBG was discredited as a Bad Idea within a *month* of when it was published. It's straight up worse than the AES or hash-based DRBGs and no decent cryptographer would use it.
3. Other forms of ECC work perfectly well, and in the future, is likely the only practical choice. RSA and other FFC scales very very poorly - 1024-bit isn't good enough any more, 2048-bit barely works okay right now, and 4096 bit is just Way Too Slow (availability trumps *everything* else). If you're *really* worried about specific curves and know what you're doing, generate some for your own use.

Almost no attacks are actually on the fundamental math. There's more than enough low-hanging fruit in implementation problems.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 05:56 PM   #54
Arcane
Member
 
Registered: May 2006
Location: Latvia, Europe
Distribution: random
Posts: 287

Rep: Reputation: 164Reputation: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangle View Post
I was speaking from an American point of view. But I am old enough to remember Poland in the late 1980's (believe 89). I wonder how different Europe would be now if they lived in fear.
Again..stop mixing fear with being sane and reasonable and avoiding unneeded problems. As for what i said before..long story short
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ment+brutality - see? they don't care if you are armed or not
They are far better trained than average 'kixer'(custom word for person who regulary visits sports club or martial arts lessons or simply acts like tough guy), have far cooler equipment, have protection from law, have studied human nature seriously etc. It would take all people to go against them successfully. Solution is simple..either join them or ignore them and live peacefully by law and don't provoke problems you will regret later. In real life they act way more different than in TV like in this TV show Flashpoint. As someone said before - this is a twisted Orwellian universe society we live in.

Last edited by Arcane; 09-19-2013 at 05:58 PM. Reason: typo
 
Old 09-19-2013, 08:10 PM   #55
tangle
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Smithville, TN
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 1,745

Rep: Reputation: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Again..stop mixing fear with being sane and reasonable and avoiding unneeded problems. As for what i said before..long story short
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ment+brutality - see? they don't care if you are armed or not
They are far better trained than average 'kixer'(custom word for person who regulary visits sports club or martial arts lessons or simply acts like tough guy), have far cooler equipment, have protection from law, have studied human nature seriously etc. It would take all people to go against them successfully. Solution is simple..either join them or ignore them and live peacefully by law and don't provoke problems you will regret later. In real life they act way more different than in TV like in this TV show Flashpoint. As someone said before - this is a twisted Orwellian universe society we live in.
Like I said before. There are some things that should gnaw at a man worse than death.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 12:35 AM   #56
rdx
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2007
Location: Dallas
Distribution: Slackware 11, 14.1 :: Slackware64 14.1
Posts: 118

Rep: Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangle View Post
Yes but wrong is still wrong. What is a man if he does not stand up for right?


In America the People are the final arbitrators of justice. The Constitution is filled with checks and balances. There is even a section in there that was specifically written to deal with a tyrranical government. There are some things that should dig at a man worse than death. The yolk of slavery should be one of them.
You have put your finger on the crux of the biscuit. One one side you have the people, on the other the Constitution. But let's take a closer look.

The Constitution represents the rule of law which sounds solid until you consider that the meaning of the Constitution is what the Courts say it is. And the federal courts are notoriously pro-government. There are special secret courts which hear the arguments and issue warrants and gag orders, right? I'm not too sure you can count on relief from the Constitution.

Then there are the people. The famous call of the demagogue is "Let the people decide." Anytime someone wants to go against the rule of law they can find a willing audience if they appeal to emotions. I can't count the number of times I heard people (*cough*women*cough) who say they are willing to trade privacy for safety. Yes, I know that it's a fool's trade but if you scare enough people you can bend their will anyway you want. The problem here is that people are political creatures and act out of emotions most of the time.

I hope you see now that there are no simple answers. As I said before, I think the most productive approach to correcting the ills is to appeal to big business because the revelations of weak security strike at the heart of their credibilty, and will likely cost them business around the world.

Then we only have to worry about what big business does (Google scares the hell outta me) with all the data they are collecting, analyzing and storing forever. The one bright spot I can see is that I'm old and will die soon enough, so I will escape this Orwellian space.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 02:17 AM   #57
Arcane
Member
 
Registered: May 2006
Location: Latvia, Europe
Distribution: random
Posts: 287

Rep: Reputation: 164Reputation: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangle View Post
Like I said before. There are some things that should gnaw at a man worse than death.
Then you are insane and wish for death if you really plan going against them alone or in small group..ye i agree you can prepare for home visit etc. but that is defense move not offense move. Although the best defense is not offense but illusion that you are nothing special so they will not waste time on you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdx View Post
{...}Then we only have to worry about what big business does (Google scares the hell outta me) with all the data they are collecting, analyzing and storing forever. The one bright spot I can see is that I'm old and will die soon enough, so I will escape this Orwellian space.
Yup..internet just prooves there is no 100% freedom. Your price for it is giving them data. If you want to be safe either give them incomplete data or misleading fake data or become decoy.
Don't be so sure about death as escape of this O-space. They are not that stupid. They probably know answer to if soul exists or not therefore might give you false premise of reincarnation and how to manipulate it to their advantage. Again - we might live only once but if we do it right it is enough.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 03:55 AM   #58
H_TeXMeX_H
Guru
 
Registered: Oct 2005
Location: $RANDOM
Distribution: slackware64
Posts: 12,928
Blog Entries: 2

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxdev View Post
Less crypto FUD, please
1. AES is *fine*. It was designed in Belgium, and the constants used are well-understood.
2. Dual EC DRBG was discredited as a Bad Idea within a *month* of when it was published. It's straight up worse than the AES or hash-based DRBGs and no decent cryptographer would use it.
3. Other forms of ECC work perfectly well, and in the future, is likely the only practical choice. RSA and other FFC scales very very poorly - 1024-bit isn't good enough any more, 2048-bit barely works okay right now, and 4096 bit is just Way Too Slow (availability trumps *everything* else). If you're *really* worried about specific curves and know what you're doing, generate some for your own use.

Almost no attacks are actually on the fundamental math. There's more than enough low-hanging fruit in implementation problems.
1. Prove it or you are spreading FUD.
As for ECC:
http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/09/1...es-back-doored
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:25 AM   #59
k3lt01
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Distribution: Debian Wheezy, Jessie, Sid/Experimental, playing with LFS.
Posts: 2,759

Rep: Reputation: 576Reputation: 576Reputation: 576Reputation: 576Reputation: 576Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
1. Prove it or you are spreading FUD.
As for ECC:
http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/09/1...es-back-doored
Like Wikipedia Slashdot is not proof of anything. Take the time to link to the real articles or real academic works for a change.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 08:06 AM   #60
Arcane
Member
 
Registered: May 2006
Location: Latvia, Europe
Distribution: random
Posts: 287

Rep: Reputation: 164Reputation: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Like Wikipedia Slashdot is not proof of anything. Take the time to link to the real articles or real academic works for a change.
Not true. Since Wikimedia movement Wikipedia has progressed since day it was considered to be faulty. They even provide tools they use to general public. Time to stop distrust and give some benefit of doubt afterall.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LXer: The NSA is Commandeering the Internet LXer Syndicated Linux News 3 08-16-2013 03:00 AM
LXer: XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet' LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 07-31-2013 03:02 PM
LXer: XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet' LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 07-31-2013 12:41 PM
Can Demand Paging be disabled or circumvented? ajmayhall Linux - Newbie 13 12-16-2007 08:04 PM
LXer: AT&T Forwards ALL Internet Traffic Into NSA Says EFF LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 04-06-2006 11:21 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:57 AM.

Main Menu
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
identi.ca: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration