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Old 06-24-2013, 09:24 AM   #16
jens
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Interesting blog article on this:

We Should All Have Something To Hide
http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/we-...thing-to-hide/

Last edited by jens; 06-24-2013 at 09:26 AM.
 
Old 06-24-2013, 09:27 AM   #17
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
I understand and agree but I am not naive and think it does not happen or even that it is something new in the "western democracies". In Common Law jurisdictions privacy is extremely limited and in Australia it is legislated that privacy is not absolute. They are not out to know what you had for dinner or how many times you went to the toilet last night.

From the Australian Privacy Commisioner
Here they do not need a warrant all they need to do is show that the information is required to help in investigations. I personally have no problem with that but I know others do and the question I asked before is for those people. I dare say other Common law jurisdictions are the same as we are here in Australia.
You're linked to 'US surveillance program — Statement from Australian Privacy Commissioner' which IMO at least gives the impression that tyou are refering to Australians rights to privacy online. A warrant is not needed for Australian inteligence agencies or police to preserve internet commuinications-

Quote:
Data preservation

Under the cybercrime law, Australian law enforcement agencies, including the Federal and State police, and the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (the ASIO), may require carriers to preserve communications about specified persons or telecommunication services in relation to domestic or foreign criminal investigations. There are two categories of preservation notices: domestic and foreign.
Domestic preservation notices

A domestic preservation notice can be issued if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting there to be communications which may assist in connection with the investigation (by the issuing agency) of a serious contravention of Australian law, or assist in obtaining intelligence relating to security by the ASIO, and which relates to the person or service specified in the notice.
http://www.minterellison.com/publica...update-201305/

However, for accessing stored internet commuinications, a warrant is needed-

Quote:
Accessing stored communications

A stored communications warrant must be obtained before an agency can access preserved communications. The warrant is valid for 5 days or until the day it is first executed
http://www.minterellison.com/publica...update-201305/

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Maybe it's time for the US to have another revolution, I think its time for one in Australia.
Quote:
Commonwealth Consolidated Acts

CRIMES ACT 1914 - SECT 24AA
Treachery

(1) A person shall not:

(a) do any act or thing with intent:

(i) to overthrow the Constitution of the Commonwealth by revolution or sabotage; or

(ii) to overthrow by force or violence the established government of the Commonwealth, of a State or of a proclaimed country; or

(b) within the Commonwealth or a Territory not forming part of the Commonwealth:

(i) levy war, or do any act preparatory to levying war, against a proclaimed country;

(ii) assist by any means whatever, with intent to assist, a proclaimed enemy of a proclaimed country; or

(iii) instigate a person to make an armed invasion of a proclaimed country.

(2) Where a part of the Defence Force is on, or is proceeding to, service outside the Commonwealth and the Territories not forming part of the Commonwealth, a person shall not assist by any means whatever, with intent to assist, any persons:

(a) against whom that part of the Defence Force, or a force that includes that part of the Defence Force is or is likely to be opposed; and

(b) who are specified, or included in a class of persons specified, by proclamation to be persons in respect of whom, or a class of persons in respect of which, this subsection applies.

(3) A person who contravenes a provision of this section shall be guilty of an indictable offence, called treachery.

Penalty: Imprisonment for life.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...482/s24aa.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
There is a difference between breaking into one persons privacy for a good reason and mass surveillance of all citizens of a country.
Exactly.
 
Old 06-24-2013, 10:05 AM   #18
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
Interesting blog article on this:

We Should All Have Something To Hide
http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/we-...thing-to-hide/
An excellent read. There are still more reasons for privacy, of course.
 
Old 06-24-2013, 03:12 PM   #19
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Guys, please keep it civil. There is no reason to call anyone paranoid here, the questions of the OP are valid and I can see where they come from. There is a difference between breaking into one persons privacy for a good reason and mass surveillance of all citizens of a country. I think that is what H_TeXMeX_H wants to say and what corbintechboy just expresses in a different way.
Demanding that anyone who thinks the way I do post up everythign about themselves on social media is what this thread is about. Just because he is sick of governments doesn't mean he can come here and boss the rest of us around. If you as a mod want things kept civil then why hasn't anyone said that the original post is out of line? We shoudn't need to report things like this mods look at these posts and I am surprised that has not been picked up.
 
Old 06-24-2013, 03:40 PM   #20
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
You're linked to 'US surveillance program — Statement from Australian Privacy Commissioner' which IMO at least gives the impression that tyou are refering to Australians rights to privacy online. A warrant is not needed for Australian inteligence agencies or police to preserve internet commuinications-
I'm not linked to anything. I did however link to a page on the internet from an Australian Government source. That page then has another link that continues the first page on another page. It says what I quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
http://www.minterellison.com/publica...update-201305/

However, for accessing stored internet commuinications, a warrant is needed-
Once they have the information through surveilance they don't need a warrant for "stored internet communications". Why? because they already have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
You've taken the extreme side with this. I never said the Constitution but I do mean the government! Never before have we had a PM or a government that has not listened at all to the people on any matter they have put forward. When the people vote in a certain person as PM (i.e. duly elected by the vast majority of the people) and another roles that person that is a problem. When that person calls an election and can't make up their mind who they are (remember the real Julia fiasco?) there is a problem. When that person goes to an election and says "There will be no ....... under a government I lead" and then breaks that promise within a month there is a probem. When 2 independants decide the fate of a nation and vote the exact opposite of what their electorates put as their 2nd choice there is a problem. Our PM (and the entire Labor party, Greens and Independants) knows what I think and so does my local member (one of the so called independants), why? because I have been in contact with them. If what I say or believe is "treason" I'd be in gaol already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
Exactly.
There is mass surveilance already and has been for years. It's a bit late to start crying foul now.

Last edited by k3lt01; 06-24-2013 at 03:41 PM.
 
Old 06-24-2013, 05:42 PM   #21
k3lt01
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Your extreme solutions can be used against you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Here's a more extreme solution in line with the mainstream. How about I let the govmn't monitor absolutely everything in real-time everywhere ... however, in exchange if any terrorist event happens, then it is clearly either a massive inexcusable failure of the govmn't or the work of the govmn't themselves (equivalent in terms of the law) and they should be punished very severely for it (the death penalty). It can be no other way, if you give them absolute power then they must have absolute responsibility. I bet they won't like this, they just want absolute power and no responsibility.
No one has said they have absolute power, they have the responsibility to protect the people. The problem is when the crap hits the fan people say "why didn't they do more to stop this?" So the government tries the next obvious step and you get civil libertarians crying foul. So I ask you as a civil libertarian are you yourself willing to take the punishments you have suggested in the post I quote above if and when the crap hits the fan? It is either you as a citizen get out there and protect the nation or you let the government do it, there can be no other way!
 
Old 06-24-2013, 06:15 PM   #22
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Demanding that anyone who thinks the way I do post up everythign about themselves on social media is what this thread is about. Just because he is sick of governments doesn't mean he can come here and boss the rest of us around. If you as a mod want things kept civil then why hasn't anyone said that the original post is out of line? We shoudn't need to report things like this mods look at these posts and I am surprised that has not been picked up.
So let us look at the initial post of this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H
I'm so sick of this "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." BS from politicians and people who worship them.
Pure opinion/rant.
Quote:
I have an easy solution, for all those who have nothing to hide, why not just release all your details publicly ? Then we will all be sure you have nothing to hide, and you will have nothing to fear ... right ?
His conclusion to an easy solution, as I see it meant as provocation to make people think about their oppinion about that specific topic, but definitely not bossing anyone.
Quote:
Go on, go on your facebook or twitter, as this seems to be the initiative for this, and post everything about you. When I say everything, I mean everything, like medical records, sexual experiences, business transactions and deals, your location in real-time, all details about yourself required to steal your identity, etc. but it doesn't matter because you have nothing to fear ... somehow.
Elaborating what he means with "all your details" in the provocative question. I can't see any demand to actually do that, which is supported by the last sentences in the initial post:
Quote:
Or do you feel fear when you think about it a bit more ? Or can you even think about it ?
Asking the people he wanted to address for a re-evaluation of their opinions on this topic. Still not bossing anyone or demanding anything.

As you may have noticed, two mods have looked at this discussion, none of them found the initial post out of the line (although, as mentioned by unSpawn, this type of post rather belongs into a personal blog). I also can't see any violation of the LQ Rules by the OP. Otherwise we would have already acted as necessary.
Now let this thread go back on topic, if you want to discuss this any further feel free to contact me or any other mod of this forum.

Last edited by TobiSGD; 06-24-2013 at 06:17 PM.
 
Old 06-24-2013, 10:11 PM   #23
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
So let us look at the initial post of this thread:Pure opinion/rant.
His conclusion to an easy solution, as I see it meant as provocation to make people think about their oppinion about that specific topic, but definitely not bossing anyone.
Elaborating what he means with "all your details" in the provocative question. I can't see any demand to actually do that, which is supported by the last sentences in the initial post:Asking the people he wanted to address for a re-evaluation of their opinions on this topic. Still not bossing anyone or demanding anything.

As you may have noticed, two mods have looked at this discussion, none of them found the initial post out of the line (although, as mentioned by unSpawn, this type of post rather belongs into a personal blog). I also can't see any violation of the LQ Rules by the OP. Otherwise we would have already acted as necessary.
Now let this thread go back on topic, if you want to discuss this any further feel free to contact me or any other mod of this forum.
Let us actually look at this in context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
I'm so sick of this "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." BS from politicians and people who worship them.
An over generalisation designed to get people offside from the start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
I have an easy solution, for all those who have nothing to hide, why not just release all your details publicly ? Then we will all be sure you have nothing to hide, and you will have nothing to fear ... right ?
No solution is ever easy and the fact he adds another post, going on about the death penalty for government representatives (is this not against LQ rules?), means this 1st post is not a conclusion rather it is a challenge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Go on, go on your facebook or twitter, as this seems to be the initiative for this, and post everything about you.
Repeating oneself to make a point shows anger and a demanding attitude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
When I say everything, I mean everything, like medical records, sexual experiences, business transactions and deals, your location in real-time, all details about yourself required to steal your identity, etc. but it doesn't matter because you have nothing to fear ... somehow. Or do you feel fear when you think about it a bit more ? Or can you even think about it ?
So you are saying when he says, he doesn't mean is that right? Each paragraph starts with an I and goes on with another I saying you or your. This is not a suggestion its a demand and the fact he is so forceful over 3 paragrpahs shows this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
[/rant]
An excuse to get away with his behaviour.

This is our contact Tobi. I have made my opinion known just like H_Tex has made his known. If he can say things like "people who worship ...." and that is an opinion instead of an insult then each and everyone of my statements is merely an opinion.

Back on topic.

There is a huge difference between deliberately posting your own personal information and governments using survelience. This topic is, in my opinion, ill conceived and poorly posted. Instead of being an emotional outburst going on and on about others, see the explanation above about langauge use, it would have been better to consider what he as an individual can do to protect his privacy.

Last edited by k3lt01; 06-24-2013 at 10:25 PM.
 
Old 06-24-2013, 11:29 PM   #24
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
No solution is ever easy
Yes, easy solutions exist, like putting the OP on your ignore list, since he seems to bother you with his posts and this is not the first thread where this happens.
 
Old 06-24-2013, 11:52 PM   #25
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Yes, easy solutions exist, like putting the OP on your ignore list, since he seems to bother you with his posts and this is not the first thread where this happens.
Taken out of context Tobi.

BTW I was put on his ignore list numerous times yet he still replies to me. I will continue to post where I want on any topic that interests me, regardless of who is the OP, refuting anything that I believe is wrong or extreme. I believe, yes it is my opinion, demanding by continuously repeating the same statements (see the analysis of his post above) of people one disagrees with is bad form. I also believe not answering valid questions when others answer his questions is bad form. Lastly, for this post, I believe recommending the death penalty for elected members of governments when the said person is not willing to provide any protections for a society he is a part of is extremely bad for and I am surprised that I am the only person who publicly states this. For someone who is worried about extremism the OP has shown in this thread that he is extreme.
 
Old 06-25-2013, 08:19 AM   #26
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
I believe, yes it is my opinion, demanding by continuously repeating the same statements (see the analysis of his post above) of people one disagrees with is bad form.
I still can't see where H_TeXMeX_H demands anything, all I can see are thought experiments. Talking about bad form, your first replay to this thread (immediately throwing insults, which by the way are a rule violation and forced me to remember the participants in this thread to keep it civil) is not an example for good form either.

Quote:
I also believe not answering valid questions when others answer his questions is bad form.
Maybe, but not a rule violation and in the worst case not more than simply annoying.

Quote:
Lastly, for this post, I believe recommending the death penalty for elected members of governments when the said person is not willing to provide any protections for a society he is a part of is extremely bad for and I am surprised that I am the only person who publicly states this.
May be this is because you are the only person in this thread that doesn't get that this isn't a recommendation, but a thought experiment. Again, his sentence began with "How about ...", not "I demand ..." or "I recommend ...". It is in question form, not an imperative.

Last edited by TobiSGD; 06-25-2013 at 08:20 AM.
 
Old 06-25-2013, 10:02 AM   #27
jamison20000e
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Anything can be here or in our blogs (deserving consequences and maby even rules (because they were born first and maybe don't call for evolution\r*\* yet)) but lol "points" 7,000,000,000 needing only K1-25 for all! And, I can stop txt'n that now cuz it's in my sig...

Last edited by jamison20000e; 06-25-2013 at 11:28 AM. Reason: day off :D
 
Old 06-25-2013, 11:04 AM   #28
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
Anything can be here or in our blogs (deserving consequences and maby even rules) but lol "points" 7,000,000,000 needing only K1-25 4all!
Sorry, but I didn't understand that at all.
 
Old 06-25-2013, 11:32 AM   #29
jamison20000e
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Generally off topic ;)

TobiSGD+: "General"ly we don't(.)


Last edited by jamison20000e; 06-25-2013 at 02:12 PM.
 
Old 06-25-2013, 02:41 PM   #30
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
I still can't see where H_TeXMeX_H demands anything, all I can see are thought experiments. Talking about bad form, your first replay to this thread (immediately throwing insults, which by the way are a rule violation and forced me to remember the participants in this thread to keep it civil) is not an example for good form either.
When you repeat the same thing in the same post, even in the same sentence (e.g. go on, go on) it is not a thought experiment is is an emphatic demand. This is English language use. The first insult was thrown when the statement was made "and those who worship them". Just because he does not trust anyone in authority over him does not mean anyone else worships politicians. I never forced you to do anything. You did so because you wanted to, at no stage did I say Tobi go on, go on, do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Maybe, but not a rule violation and in the worst case not more than simply annoying.
I said it was poor form nothing about a rule violation in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
May be this is because you are the only person in this thread that doesn't get that this isn't a recommendation, but a thought experiment. Again, his sentence began with "How about ...", not "I demand ..." or "I recommend ...". It is in question form, not an imperative.
Lol Tobi, the imperative comes with the go on go on and other repititions. English is a lovely language because it allows for use of differnt structures to do the same thing. H_Tex has done thsi quite well and I am sorry if you cannot see this but maybe it is because you like to think about thought experiments (you have a history of claiming thought experiments) and not about everything involved.

Anyway Tobi here is a question for everyone. If the government doesn't protect the citizens of the country you are in will you? Following on from H_Tex's other comment, if anyone in your country is hurt through you not providing protection would you accept H_Tex's punishment (death penalty)? These questions are not thought experiments they are just questions that I am interested in your answer so don't think about it because you should already know what you think.
 
  


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