Well, whats so bad about AT&T in the first place? Someone has to take care of the internet somehow. Its not like we can all just wire some fiber optic cable to some big self managed IPV6 switch and have free, neutral internet for the entire world. Get your head out of the clouds.

Oh were we discussing the internet, I'm just staggered to find out the Easter Bunny isn't real.

Agreed completely. Richard Stallman wants to think otherwise though. I find it funny how these people who have the ambition to run massive organizations know absolutely nothing about managing such large entities.
It's interesting that, no matter how "non-corporate" or "free" projects try to remain, when their popularity goes through the roof they suddenly realize the beauty of corporatism in their situation. Look at Mozilla Foundation, now Mozilla Corporation. Their products all remain free, and yet with their new model they are able to operate much more efficiently. If the Free Software Foundation ever gains any popularity and gets their head out of the clouds, I suspect that they may do the same. What I'm saying is, I think it could be great of an entity like At&t ran the internet if they managed it well and realized where their bread is buttered -- and kept it free.

If you have no interests in engaging your audience, why on earth did you bother posting this thread?

Keep on with the attitude and, wherever LQ is registered, I will close the thread.

well after 2,544 posts here helping people with my considerable skills as a Linux builder i will never post another word on this website.
i bet i can help people at linuxforum.com yes ?
you people are like a pack of ignorant dogs and you can all kiss my ass on the way out !
I don't take this kind of bull shit from anyone and i'm not about to start now.

Why are you acting like this now?
This is sad. Two years and two thousand posts, and you are going to throw it all away in a single post.

First, let me say that the fact that many of the incumbents want to create a tiered Internet is indeed bad (at least if you're in the USA) and should be seen as nothing short of scary. That being said - foo_bar_foo, I think you'll find the level of intellect here at LQ is quite high. But if you want to engage in an interesting discussion then you're certainly going about it the wrong way. You start by attacking a mod, which is not acceptable here, and then continue to belittle others after that. Interesting and thought provoking threads usually start with the original posters attitude. I hope you'll decide to continue your participation at LQ moving forward, but please do respect all other members. Thanks.

--jeremy

Jeremy,

First of all, let me make it very clear that I am not rationalizing anybody's bad behaviour on this forum or even saying that what foo-bar did was right.

But....

This forum sometimes takes a lot of heat. It's difficult to discuss anything here. I'm a member of a lot of online forums over the period I've been here and I can assure you that the collective number of flame wars in the General forum is much more than all the flame wars I've seen in other forums (less busy forums, agreed, but nevertheless something that never ceases to amaze me).

There is a certain degree of cynicism prevailing here which is probably due to the varied atmosphere and the different cultures and backgrounds of the members here. I've tried debating a few sensitive issues on this forum in the past and it has never, ever worked out, even if I assumed a polite and friendly attitude in the first instance. And a willingness to debate openly.

I'm sure I cannot put my finger on what's wrong with this atmosphere. But one thing I know. At LQ, debating any topic outside of the technology realm seems to be a sure fire way to attract negative comments (even though they might not amount to flaming). I'm sure the mods will agree that discussions are so hard to keep on track here.

I am not saying that foo-bar is right or wrong, but merely that I can understand the feeling of frustrating which this member might feel due to the reasons I mentioned here. I have gone through similar emotions in the past, but I have controlled myself to a large extent since I think this is an otherwise great forum for Linux and there's no reason to go away because of a few incidents.

I try to be as frank as possible. This is my honest opinion and I hope it helps the forum mods and admins to see the issues relating to the forum from different angles.

Harishankar,

You might be feeling empathy for foo bar, but I can tell you he sure doesn't have empathy for you. It looks like he rolled off on the wrong side of bed or maybe even off a bed of nails. He does'nt even seem to like the people that could be convinced. And he's taken the same additude that the "bad people" have.

Hello, ignorant consumer. This our internet, we don't have to share it with anyone. You're lucky we're feeling generous enough today to grace you with our bullshit. Here. Take up this story. Its negative, but we know you'll eat it up. Worship us. Agree with us. Otherwise die.


In other words, foo bar is very difficult character to like and probably would'nt be anymore welcome at linuxforums.org or any other forum for that matter. I mean just look at this.

Already he claims he knows more and is better than anyone here. There is no premise or any attempt to disguise his true feelings. It is quite clear he doesn't want to hear anything anyone else has to say or engage in any further discussion.

Corporate greed is inherently evil.

It's not effective to start the ball in this way so everyone hears about it, and nothing more. We can't expect that it will suddenly transform into widespread condemnation that will change matters some day... We are desensitized because all kind of stuff happens and a rumour in the way you present it isn't likely to suddenly have more priority than our daily interests and above many of the evils in this world. It's not possible that something we post in a bored state of mind will be received in the opposite way. It would not gain momentum like that. To fight opression use the available tools well.

This all started becuase I asked for sources. The original post made a few one line statements and then asked for opinions. I want sources so I can read the rest and then make up my mind/discuss further.

I would advise anyone, wherever you are, to always provide sources - this doesn't just apply to journalism or academia but to anything. Which is better:

"They say that the US is a terrible place"

or

"I was reading an article in the Financial Times which said that the standard of living in the US is at an all time low"

(Please note: the above two statements are purely for illustration - I have no idea if either is true. The first one isn't, IMO).

Foo bar foo said that one was from Tim Berners-Lee, which one? Was the statement taken out of context or did he have other things to say?

As I said before, yeah, I agree that it's not easy to please everybody. I guess when discussing a news story some sort of references are needed. The only point I wanted to raise was that maybe the lack of sources didn't justify so much heat in this thread. Maybe I'm just being a little overcritical.

Nevertheless my general observations still stand... Past experience shows that this forum is best used for technical questions, answers and discussions...

Harishankar, I think shear size has a lot to do with your perception on this one. Compared to any similarly sized medium I've seen, you're probably *less* likely to get flamed at LQ. That being said, General is certainly more lax (and intentionally so to an extent) then the technical forums. When you have a member base that is over 220,000 and is decidedly technical in nature, certain non-technical topics are almost inevitably going to be fuel for flames. If you have any ideas on how to curtail that, we'll certainly listen.

--jeremy

Thanks jeremy. I certainly have some ideas regarding this...

First I think we need to limit the "General" section to technology related subjects which are at least somewhat connected with the main focus of the site (namely Linux). We can have all technology discussions here, but it should be somehow not "off-topic" if you can get my meaning.

Politics, religion and any other "rant" type of threads have to be prevented. I know that this might go against the free nature of LQ.org but I seriously haven't seen how this has benefitted the forum and it might make moderation a lot easier since there is an official policy behind it.

Topics to be disallowed:

1. Any topics of a personal nature (I've seen some threads like this recently and to be frank, they don't offer much discussion value and somehow they seem to end badly).

2. Politics of any kind, particularly that of US. Almost any thread remotely connected with any kind of US policy seems to bring out a kind of frenzied warfare here. Almost inevitably it leads to a lot of ill feeling and those topics can well be avoided.

3. Religion. Needless to say, this almost always brings in Islam vs. the West and that makes it so difficult to keep emotions under control for a lot of people.

4. Yet another "Windows vs. Linux" threads. True, this is a technology subject, but we've had plenty of these in the past. Limiting this subject to a single thread is the way to go, because almost every week or so, there are subjects which start off on a weekly basis under different names. While personally I have long started ignoring these, there is always active and unproductive debates in this area. Limiting it to a single thread will greatly improve things.

5. Rants. Any topic which seems like a complaint or rant almost always attracts negativity. I don't see too many productive discussions and we also see plenty of flaming in these areas. Any thread which is not an open discussion and not a specific technology related question should be prevented.

I think these steps are quite important to refocus LQ.org to the purpose it is meant for and help long-time members stay focussed within the community. I think it's fine having a general section, but I think the official policy must state that politics, religion and other off-topic, controversial subjects are taboo here. Quite frankly, you'd get a few complaints of "censorship" initially. But once the policy is established, I think LQ.org can only gain out of this.

I think these appear to be restrictions, but I think a greater benefit will accrue to the forum as the level of friendliness can only improve and not deteriorate as I'm seeing a lot of it happen these days.

To be honest, I don't think I'm prepared to do that level of censorship here. It just doesn't seem right IMHO. We're about freedom and choice. Now, along with that freedom comes responsibility and other repercussions. That being said, *any* thread with *any* topic will be closed if it turns into a flame war. If that means no thread on a certain topic remains open for more than 10 minutes, that's fine. Telling members they simply can't talk about a topic that does not break our rules would seem to me to be going one step too far though.

--jeremy