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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-18-2003, 12:29 AM   #91
ksgill
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Well...Linux is very easy to use with KDE and GNOME..but when it comes to configuring and installing programs, its not for regular people..and I think its pretty ignorant to say that people "simply" dont wanna learn. People do want to learn..I've been trying to make Ftp server work on linux for over a day and I still havent configured it the way i wanted it to..on the other hand windows is so much easier. Dont get me wrong I am not anti-linux..but dont hate windows people.
best
 
Old 04-18-2003, 09:07 PM   #92
ricdave
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The point of my post is that there are options for people who want a Linux distro that works "out of the box" w/out the normal config hassles, and a source of additional pre-configured and easily installed software as well as the usual normal, bug fix, and security updates. You have to pay for it, but then you expect to pay for convenience, no?
 
Old 04-18-2003, 11:21 PM   #93
poloktim
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jatt_thugz
Well...Linux is very easy to use with KDE and GNOME..but when it comes to configuring and installing programs, its not for regular people..and I think its pretty ignorant to say that people "simply" dont wanna learn. People do want to learn..I've been trying to make Ftp server work on linux for over a day and I still havent configured it the way i wanted it to..on the other hand windows is so much easier. Dont get me wrong I am not anti-linux..but dont hate windows people.
best
I had an argument on IRC with someone over the underlined comment. Back when I first got Debian. I said people do want to learn and he, with more experience in the field than a 17 year old, said otherwise. I was choosing a window manager at the time. He told me to use KDE because it was close to Microsoft Windows. I had received a few bits of advice. I tried KDE out and thought it ugly. On I moved to GNOME. I found that horrible too. I tried a few different window managers before settling with Fluxbox.

The argument was over I should've kept with KDE because it's based on what I know. I came out with the statement "People want to learn new things." He disagreed. I will believe him too. He has experience in info-tech.

What I'm trying to say is: not all of us want to be an academic when it comes to how a computer works. Those of the people migrating to Linux who don't want to learn, have only done so because of price/stability/requirement. They'd like something easy to use so they won't have to learn. I could recommend Fluxbox to them, but that would be stupid, it comes with a right click menu and an ugly appearance that needs to be edited with '~/.fluxbox/init'. I'd reccomend KDE as it comes with an extremely easy to use setup which allows users to configure using a program, rather than trial and error with an init script.

Those that do want to be an accademic at Linux would hate the idea of making it easier, those who use Linux reluctantly because of an aforementioned reason want something easy. There will never be an agreement. All that could be done is to design distros suitable for a specified audience (one of the two).

Also Jatt, I don't see the point in being anti-Microsoft. People have their own choice to use what they want, if they choose MS products then good for them.
 
Old 04-19-2003, 02:23 AM   #94
i_is_cat
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its called Lindows
 
Old 04-19-2003, 03:49 AM   #95
Sadie Newlinux
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Question Redhat, Ethics, and Microsoft

[Yes, I do worry that if Linux were to become commercialized, then it would soon be another Microsoft situation, ]

<snip>

At the risk of starting a war here, isn't that what many people are complaining about Redhat for? They went corporate and took their distro with them, it was (supposedly - not speaking from experience here, just quoting) much better in earlier releases, now they're releasing "on schedule" due to corporate and stockholder constraints, rather than when it's done?

I thought that was one of the "major" issues in the distro war? Or did I miss something vital somewheres?

Sadie
(who's only just back, catching up, installing Mandrake and trying to read the whole board all at the same time!)
 
Old 04-19-2003, 03:58 AM   #96
Sadie Newlinux
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Reasoning for Switches

Quote:
Originally posted by jonr
It's simply that I cannot use Microsoft products anymore and feel I'm not doing something deeply immoral.
This is exactly why I switched from Microsoft Office to StarOffice by Sun Microsystems. Aside from the fact that it's not made by Microsoft, it also has some incredibly stellar features. It's a little quirky - kind of like WordPerfect vs. Microsoft Word, but it's well worth the effort IMHO and here's why:

1) It's not made by Microsoft.
2) It's truly cross-platform. Right out of the box it works on Linux, Unix, Sun and Windows OS's. No tweaking.
3) It's packaged with a word processor, a spreadsheet, a graphics program (simple), publishing wizards, a database and a presentation package.
4) It has lots of easy to use and fun additional features that make navigating through documents, changing cells in spreadsheets or just calling up templates fun and easy.
5) It runs commercially around $60.00US.
6) It's compatible with Word, WP and various other word processors so that you can still read, open, edit and send compatible files to all your friends who haven't switched.
7) They have message boards and free help available, and a community - similar to this one - limping along to help other people make the switch.

I just think it's great - if you can't tell - and it fed right into my desire to *NOT* use windows products, if I could at all help it. Of course, I currently can *not* help it, since I have to use Quickbooks and Peachtree for my accounting business, so I currently have XP on my system. But give a girl a break - I'm trying. It's sort of like being a drug addict. I'm a Windows junkie - I keep trying to run away from the needle, but that evil Bill Gates just keeps selling more.

Sadie
(still reading, working, installing and oh.. uh.. reading!)
 
Old 04-19-2003, 04:11 AM   #97
poloktim
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Re: Reasoning for Switches

Quote:
Originally posted by Sadie Newlinux
1) It's not made by Microsoft.
I don't understand this... Why is the product's manufacturer an executioner for the product. This hatred of Microsoft still eludes me. So what if their products are somewhat buggy, that shouldn't stop you from trying out another product from them.

Personally I love the 'Age of...' series. Yet judging by the quote, it must be inferior. I'd like to know what is the problem people have with Microsoft? They're competition. Good for them. Leave them alone and worry about what you want done and not who made it.
 
Old 04-19-2003, 08:20 AM   #98
slakmagik
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Re: Re: Reasoning for Switches

Quote:
Originally posted by poloktim
I don't understand this... Why is the product's manufacturer an executioner for the product. This hatred of Microsoft still eludes me. So what if their products are somewhat buggy, that shouldn't stop you from trying out another product from them.

Personally I love the 'Age of...' series. Yet judging by the quote, it must be inferior. I'd like to know what is the problem people have with Microsoft? They're competition. Good for them. Leave them alone and worry about what you want done and not who made it.
The hatred for MS springs in part from the fact that they use illegal practices in their "competition" and use these underhanded methods to crush superior competition. Worse, they control the industry in such a way that the computers you buy have become re-proprietarized by including broken pieces of crap like WinModems that only work properly with Microsoft products unless extremely clever hackers devote much time and effort into working around the crippled hardware... and even then it makes a HELL of a lot more effort for the user to get all the stuff working. (Yeah, I'm fighting with a WinModem now.) And they create stupid products that encourage a point-and-click mentality and bundle more products with other products to take over every facet of your computer use. And companies like AOL conspire with Microsoft to produce software-driven connections to the net and that software only works with MS and Apple (and I hate Apple just as much as Microsoft except they are far less successful at the same games and hence far less intrusive). Speaking of intrusion, Microsoft spies on every facet of your computer use, burying hidden files on your computer and making frequent unneeded contacts across the net. And they have the deeply revolting policy of requiring you to register the operating system you rent from them and can either force you to upgrade or withhold your OS from you in the event you need to reinstall. If you upgrade components of your computer their moronic OS may suddenly decide it's been 'pirated' to another computer, not realizing it's on the same one, and go running to MS demanding you re-register - meanwhile refusing to run. And on and on - MS is a purveyor of bad products made overwhelming in the marketplace by means of illegal/immoral business practices, resulting in a degradation of computer hardware and the computing experience of the user. That's part of why people hate them.

All that being said, if people want to use Windows, that's up to them. I'm currently dependent on it for my only online computer. And I think DOS is an amusing OS and not relevant to current computer issues, so I keep it around on those unconnected computers. But everything I use excepting the operating system, is a non-Microsoft product. But, like my connection issues - many people have many valid reasons for continuing to use Windows - and even if they just like it, that's up to them. What I don't understand is animosity to Windows users. I don't buy an argument that they contribute to the MS monopoly - only a few are markedly pro-Microsoft and a few doesn't amount to a monopoly. It's Microsoft capturing all the unwilling users that's a problem and no reason to be negative towards someone who's trapped.

But to say MS is just another company and why not use their products... no way.
 
Old 04-19-2003, 08:49 AM   #99
Sadie Newlinux
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Re: Re: Reasoning for Switches

Quote:
Originally posted by poloktim
I don't understand this... Why is the product's manufacturer an executioner for the product. This hatred of Microsoft still eludes me. So what if their products are somewhat buggy, that shouldn't stop you from trying out another product from them.
Perhaps you took what I was saying incorrectly, or you misread the part of my post which mentions that I'm currently using Windows XP. I *have* tried other Microsoft products. Unfortunately, what caused me to initially begin looking elsewhere were the continuous problems that I had. I was trying to run an older version of Office on this XP machine, and it kept crashing my system. Microsoft's tech support response? "That wouldn't happen if you upgraded to the new Microsoft Office XP. We no longer support the older versions of Office." So, now I've got a computer, that came pre-loaded with an operating system that I didn't really want, but have to have because of my business, and I need to upgrade to a $250.00 piece of software just so I can do my word-processing without my system crashing? I don't think so.

After this, the lawsuit last year, and the obvious lack of .. integrity.. on the part of Microsoft I became totally disallusioned. After all, I'd like to think that if I pay $250.00 for a piece of software, that it will be *complete*. And yet, somehow, Microsoft software never is. It always requires patches and updates. This is due to a shady business practice that follows from copyright procedures. Have you ever noticed how the software often has a copyright resembling "Windows XP c Microsoft 1986 - "?? Doesn't that seem sort of odd to you?

Microsoft is required to give a certain amount of notice when it releases a new product. (I'm not sure whether it's 6 months, or a year or more.) This is supposed to prevent them from stepping in and taking an idea from a smaller competitor, and ousting them before they have a chance to get a good hold on the market with a new product. After all, if I'm a small software vendor, and I'm not required by law to tell anyone that my word processor is being released, then I will have an advantage. Unless, of course, Microsoft can overshadow my release with a "stunning new product release" of their own. The notification time is supposed to stop this. But it doesn't. Here's why:

Microsoft announces *well* in advance when they're working on something. They might have said in 1986 that they were working on Windows XP, for all we know. They give *very* advance notice. Then, they work on the product, and they hold it. Until a competitor releases something. Then they drop it onto the market - finished or not - in order to overshadow the smaller competition with their "brand name recognition". Which works. The smaller competition is pushed out. And Microsoft gets away with it because they mentioned they were working on "Product X" ten years ago. See, it's on file.

However, the software they released might have been worked on for ten years, or sitting on a shelf until Microsoft got the notice that a competitor was working on something similar. Then they might've taken it off the shelf, dusted it off, and tried to update it. Either way, it's released and probably incomplete. Which is (supposedly) why Microsoft includes all of these nifty "autoupdaters". It's to make it more convenient for you. After all, it's not your fault that you bought a product that doesn't work because Microsoft released it early to get a jump on the competition, right? So you should get something to compensate for the fact that you're getting software that shouldn't even be in the BETA stages, probably, right?

Sure. What's an ark?

Microsoft doesn't tell you, that - like digiot posted - they include all kinds of spyware in their autoupdater. It checks the internet repeatedly and reports back to Microsoft.

*THIS* is why I don't like Microsoft. I've used Internet Explorer, their email program, their messenger, a bunch of their games, their office packages (several of them). I've been a "faithful" Microsoft zombie since Windows 3.1.1 came out. And you know what it's gotten me? A pat on the head, a lame thank you, and a series of programs that don't run properly and talk to each other about my private business.

With Microsoft, *everything* comes with a price tag. *THAT* is why I don't like them. That is why I *try* not to use their products. Am I successful? Not always. Many programs only run under Windows. Winmodems only work under windows and - guess what? - my computer came loaded with one. (Thank heavens for cable!) Does this mean I'm blind to the occasionally good product that Microsoft creates? NO WAY. As a matter of fact, as a *very* disallusioned Microsoft user, I'm *looking* for them. I want to feel vindicated (and not stupid, as I often do) for my many years of faithful support. Hell, I taught Microsoft products from 1993 to 1996! It was how I made my living. I will continue to look for "good" Microsoft products whereever they exist, and to state my opinion of their products that I *don't* find acceptable.

Hopefully, this clears up the confusion.

Sadie
 
Old 04-19-2003, 09:23 AM   #100
hedgehog
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I have just started to convert to linux and have attempted to install different versions. With RedHat and Caldera I had problems setting up my display drivers which is not a big problem because i can still use the command line side of linux which is the part i would like to learn the most BUT I dont have the time or patience to start messing with configuration files just to get a simple GUI display.

I understand this probably goes against everthing that linux is about but I just wanted a standard display driver to get things up and running so that i can start downloading updates easily, and gradually start learning the intricates of this wonderfull none profiteering O/S.

With RedHat and Caldera they both refused to let me use the startx prog without the correct drivers but i have now found MANDRAKE v9. It works great it has used the interview style installation and has had no problems with displaying the GUI, so now i can get into the learning side of the O/S and hopefully one day soon be able to say NO to microsoft linux is the one for me

Sorry for being such a newbie, im not a lazy computer user I work in IT as a support technician and i do love to tinker with my computer and not just play games (although i do like the odd FPS) but for any other newbies out there having problems converting to linux try mandrake ver9.0 it works for me.

p.s

I know linux is a serious OS but are there any good First Person Shooters on linux ? (come on everyone likes to play games now and then)
 
Old 04-19-2003, 10:10 AM   #101
hedgehog
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Im just converting to linux from microsoft but im proud to say i have never paid for any software from Microsoft.

Hell I cant afford 2-300 quid on software to learn so that i can further my career.

Freeware rules and if its a microsoft product then copy it.
 
Old 04-19-2003, 10:17 AM   #102
acid_kewpie
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Quote:
Originally posted by hedgehog
Im just converting to linux from microsoft but im proud to say i have never paid for any software from Microsoft.

Hell I cant afford 2-300 quid on software to learn so that i can further my career.

Freeware rules and if its a microsoft product then copy it.
LinuxQuestions is a Linux site, and so largely the views held here are anti-microsoft. This about not using microsoft products, and certianly NOT advocating piracy of software. Expression of such views is not appreciated here.
 
Old 04-19-2003, 12:30 PM   #103
bigjohn
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An excellent thread, with lots of well thought out opinion, but if I could respond to all the points brought up, I would be drivelling on for many pages, so my 2 pence worth (notwithstanding the efforts of the linux documentation project), is that the biggest improvement that I can currently think of, is that it would be better for all concerned (especially the
newbie's/unknowledgable/me) if there was clear, concise, easily understood, straight forward documentation, and less of the "written for geeks, by geeks" stuff that seems so prevalent.

regards

John
 
Old 04-19-2003, 03:50 PM   #104
hedgehog
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LinuxQuestions is a Linux site, and so largely the views held here are anti-microsoft. This about not using microsoft products, and certianly NOT advocating piracy of software. Expression of such views is not appreciated here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry about my previous comments, I just got caught up in the heat of the anti microsoft debate.
 
Old 04-19-2003, 07:34 PM   #105
poloktim
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Sadie and digiot, thanks for your replies (and the lack of insults that I thought would be hurled at me).

I have heard about the hidden files, I've found them and (especially with the Internet History recording) just assumed they were for network administrators to check up on the organisation's users to make sure they weren't looking at the wrong thing. I will admit that WPA is a pain the the virtual arse, that is true, especially calling Sydney (a long distance number) to do it. However I did like the user friendliness of earlier Windows versions (v3x, 9x, NT and 2000), I think XP is a bit condescending.

When I first started with Debian I did wish for the ease of the GUI like the aforementioned versions of Windows. But I did also catch on quickly, and I did miss the ability to play AoE, AoK and AoM on this computer. I got over it quickly though. I'm here and I'm still using Debian, and I'm loving it.

Sadie, I guess I agree with you. People shouldn't automatically disregard a prodcut just because it has "Microsoft" printed on the box, They should give it a try (when it comes to games download a demo from the MS product's respectable website), read up on the product on both Microsoft's website, MS critics' webpages and reviewers who don't give two hoots about MS and rate the software on its quality and not the producer's quality. The truth is MS Windows is the most widely used operating system and their products are equally as popular, and for those people who have careers with computers (or career aspirations) it is almost necessary to be knowledgeable on their products (as with others) so you can give good, anti-biased advice.
 
  


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