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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-29-2003, 04:57 PM   #796
unholy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Baldorg
If you are out of arguments, don't try to mix hardware with software and invent yourself arguments.
The TV set was an analogy actually. H/W and S/W have a lot in common. Both have interfaces for example, which is the crux of (this part) of the debate.

Tinkster, I dont think I know what makes you think I beleive I am "quite advanced". I dont recall making any arrogant statements. Perhaps you are basing me on someone you know.

* I still think that people who don't manage to set
the time on their VCR are stupid.

Only category I know of that falls into that category are the elderly, the "I dont care, I have a life" and the 'unwell'. I disagree with that statement. Maybe it is you that believes "he is quite advanced".

*So again, it comes down to knowledge.
...time, experience, a little support ...

Good argument about the intuitive gui. It depends what you are used to.

*How do I type "for i in *.dvi do xdvi $i done" in a GUI?

Text field? If your point is that the cnd line has its place, I agree.

*Windows isn't a good model for user-friendliness if you are not a 'default' kind of person because you are learning to achieve bare tolerability. Linux, in this sense, is more user-friendly already, for deviant weirdos who actually want to do their own thing, because you're learning how to harness something excellent.

True.

*I forget exactly what we're even talking about.
I agree totally.

I think this discussion may be missing context? One poses a question in one context, and someone argues a defence in another context (Im guilty too).

I think every OS has its place / purpose, each to his own and all that.
 
Old 11-29-2003, 07:47 PM   #797
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by ricdave
C'mon, Tink, you know better than that. Many very intelligent and industrious and productive people have neither the inclination nor the time to learn the necessary skills to effectively use and maintain Linux. Damned shame, really.
Let me put it this way:

If I want something done there's several
choices:
a) I have skill and time, I do it
b) I don't have either, I'll pay someone to do
it for me.
c) I don't have either, but it's not important
enough to pay or learn.

I don't go and get a free set of wooden blocks
and beams that allows me to build my house
any which way I please, and then complain
that I don't understand how the tools that come
with that house-kit work. I either learn to use them,
or I get someone in to do it for me. I don't complain
about the fact that I have what I got me. And if I
wanted to have the people that offer those
"variations on houses" for free to make something
different for me: see above - I'd go and pay.

What would a M$ house be like? ;} Expensive,
ugly, uniform and re-piling itself every week? :)

So, it's now lazy or stupid or tight (or a combination
thereof) ;}



Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 11-29-2003, 10:43 PM   #798
r_a_smith3530
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You know Tink, for you me, and quite a few of the people coming to this forum, what you say fits quite nicely. That's because we're "enthusiasts". We're here because we find this fun. Now, maybe that makes us a little bit strange, but that's the way it is.

There are a lot of folks out there using computers however, that don't find it fun. To them, it's an appliance, not much different than the copier or fax machine down the hall. I look at an ML530 and say, gee, I want that at my desk. I've got a user who wishes she could do her job without a computer. She hates them, why? Because she doesn't understand them. To her, they are far too complicated, nowhere near reliable enough, and generally, a pain in the butt. She runs a department that controls shipping of product and supplies all around the country. Because of her, and the department that she runs, thousands of people are able to print every day, and they have the ink cartridges and paper that are required in order to keep their printers functioning. Given a choice though, she'd have us all back in the pre-computer past.

Now, most of the more than 500 people that I support are not as bad as her, but to one degree or another, most of them are closer to her than they are to me when it comes to the technology at their desk. It's a necessary evil, just one more tool with which to accomplish their job. These people don't like having to wait every morning, as their machines authenticate to an NT domain and an NDS tree, as they receive the latest updates, as drives are mapped through login scripts. It's keeping them from getting on with their job.

The people that I mentioned above are not geeks, They don't want to spend hours learning dozens of commands in order to accomplish fifteen minutes of work. They want to instead click a few icons and be ready to do what their job requires of them. Having to meet quotas, neither they nor their bosses want them spending much time that they view as non-productive.

What I have described above is the majority of computing in this country today. It's corporate America at the desktop, and if that desktop is fairly reliable and not too complicated, and it can read and write to the software currently in use, it stands a chance of being adopted, especially if it is a Less costly alternative.

Today, that desktop is hands-down Windows. For Linux to take away any sizable chunk of that market, it is going to have to be much more "set-and-forget" than it is right now. It is going to need a help database that can be searched using terms other then the hundreds of very cryptic command names held in the "man" files.

In short, it is going to have to come of age.
 
Old 11-29-2003, 11:28 PM   #799
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by r_a_smith3530
You know Tink, for you me, and quite a few of the people coming to this forum, what you say fits quite nicely. That's because we're "enthusiasts". We're here because we find this fun. Now, maybe that makes us a little bit strange, but that's the way it is.

...


Today, that desktop is hands-down Windows.
I appreciate all of that, but it doesn't change any of
what I said. Have them stick with windows. It's not
like I am out here to conquer the M$ empire, I'm
protecting my turf.

Quote:
For Linux to take away any sizable chunk of that market, it is going to have to be much more "set-and-forget" than it is right now. It is going to need a help database that can be searched using terms other then the hundreds of very cryptic command names held in the "man" files.

In short, it is going to have to come of age.
You're kidding, right? :)

Firstly, from the perspective of some distro
vendor, there may be such a thing as a
market. Linux, as a free OS, doesn't benefit
from people in a desktop-environment in
a company using it (unless the company
donates money to GNU/KDE/or whoever ...

That concept of man-pages, and the entire
idea behind Linux is mature. I has been around
LONG before Mr Gates' DOS, and not to speak
his windows. It even was mature before the
evil one :}

I can set-up a Slackware box on my home (or work)
network in an hour so a user who doesn't like computers
can actually work with it, printing and all ...

And in your windows environment users don't do
the set-up and installation either, do they? ;}



Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 11-30-2003, 12:29 AM   #800
LOUDSilence
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I have been using Linux off and on for a while now. I am not stupid I am a employed programmer, I read posts for answers, man files, can configure applications. But am still learning. I love Linux!!!

But what all the people standing up for Linux saying it is easy don't understand and I will try to put it in simple maths as you guys may understand Linux but "Not This??"

EASYER OS = MORE OS USERS = MORE APPS AND PORTS AND GAMES AND ...

Linux should support the newbie that has never seen a computer before. Help database was an incredible idea. I know Linux has them but very incomplete. useless in my opinon. I can't belive UT2003 (game) made its way to Linux, that is great! and if we stop fighting over "It is easy already!!" and "Not easy for me!!!" and just keep working on making it easy. More people will come and join the "open" party!!!
 
Old 11-30-2003, 05:12 AM   #801
smcoptyltd
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r_a_smith3530


"You know Tink, for you me, and quite a few of the people coming to this forum, what you say fits quite nicely. That's because we're "enthusiasts". We're here because we find this fun. Now, maybe that makes us a little bit strange, but that's the way it is."

Great post!

I can divide Linux users on two groups.

1. Those for whom fun is setting it up. Tinkster and other enthusiasts.

2. Those for whom the fun is starting after OS is installed.

And second group is much, much bigger. And judging on different flavors of Linux, the most Linux communities are working very hard to make it easier.

So far the basic installation of most versions is easier and much faster than Windows.

The way Linux is going I can see in a very near future that Linux will be easier to setup with drivers and programs than Windows is.

IMHO it's a matter of very short time.

 
Old 11-30-2003, 08:34 AM   #802
r_a_smith3530
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinkster
I appreciate all of that, but it doesn't change any of
what I said. Have them stick with windows. It's not
like I am out here to conquer the M$ empire, I'm
protecting my turf.
That's what the president of the TI64 club used to say also! You know how many folks use that OS today? I know of two. Same, same for OS2. It was far better than anything that M$ had, but without widespread adoption, it has all but died.


Quote:
TinksterYou're kidding, right?
Actually, no, I'm not kidding! ;-)

Quote:
TinksterFirstly, from the perspective of some distro
vendor, there may be such a thing as a
market. Linux, as a free OS, doesn't benefit
from people in a desktop-environment in
a company using it (unless the company
donates money to GNU/KDE/or whoever ...
Let's see, I can think of at least Red Hat and SuSe that might have an argument for your above statement. Yes, Linux is a free OS, but it does and will benefit from people in desktop environments in companies using it. The more widespread and popular it becomes, the more it will grow and improve. Do you for one moment believe that if only 1,000 people had ever taken to Linux, it would be where it is today? Do you think that all of the people that have taken to Linux are programmers? The logical answer to both of those questions is a resounding NO!

Look at the Evil Empire for a moment. Can you honestly say that there is no improvement from Windows 3.1 to Windows XP Professional? That should be a NO also. The reason that it has improved is due to user demand. User's demanded a more stable platform with better and more expanded networking options. When NT4 came out, some user's complained about lack of game support and no support for the then fledgling USB.

It was user demand that brought about the upgrades, culminating in today's XP Pro, and like it or not, it's a world away from 3.1. I know, I supported both in a corporate environment.

As an OS gains wider acceptance it grows. That statement holds true for either proprietary or free systems. Where is Minix today? How many people are using it, and how much development time is being devoted to it? Heck, you can say the same thing for either hardware or software. Have you seen anyone plunking keys on a KayPro lately? In case you're wondering what my first "laptop" was, you can find it at the link below.
http://oldcomputers.net/kayproii.html

Quote:
TinksterThat concept of man-pages, and the entire
idea behind Linux is mature. I has been around
LONG before Mr Gates' DOS, and not to speak
his windows. It even was mature before the
evil one :}
No, the concept of man-pages is not mature, it is archaic. You are required to know the name of the command to find what you are looking for. To hell with that I say. Database it so that you can type in a keyword or phrase relating to what you want to do. I want to print. I don't want coffee. I'm never going to relate CUPS with printing! Yes, I hate to say, it is time to drag *NIX, kicking and screaming, into the 21st Century!

Quote:
TinksterI can set-up a Slackware box on my home (or work)
network in an hour so a user who doesn't like computers
can actually work with it, printing and all ...
I can completely build, personalize and network an NT/2000 box on our network, with printers and drives mapped, in a half hour or less. That is starting with a blank hard drive. I don't have an hour for configuration anymore. I am spread too thin! An hour for setup? An hour will almost get you a Win2k domain combo server!

Quote:
TinksterAnd in your windows environment users don't do
the set-up and installation either, do they? ;}
They do have some leeway, and are supposed to be able to know how to map and install drivers for printers. They can map their own drives. They can also personalize their Outlook client, and can change settings for their VPN client, among other things. Sometimes I think they have far too much leeway!

Last edited by r_a_smith3530; 11-30-2003 at 08:37 AM.
 
Old 11-30-2003, 11:43 AM   #803
storyteller
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Location: Nevada US
Distribution: Mandrake 9.1
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Hello all:
I think that the poll options leave a lot uncovered. I've only been on linux for about 6 months, so I'm definately not an experienced/hardcore user, and yet I like linux just fine the way it is.
Just because I had a little trouble learning to drive a stick is no reason to pull out 3 of the gears. I've found answers to all of the questions I've asked so far. I don't see any way to make linux any more user friendly (With distros like mandrake and arklinux out there) without losing the speed and functionality that makes it so superior.
I can see how it would be nearly unbearable to learn without internet access, but if you tried including a wizard for every little action, you would end up with a system so bloated and slow as to be unuseable.
Linux IS the community, and I can't see taking a silent approach to learning it. Reading and asking questions has solved every problem I've had (With the exception of that d@mned jackit program and it's dependants).
I do think that taking a community wide holistic approach to making linux more uniform and easily comrehensible would take resouces away from expanding it's functionality.
But truth be told I do see programs becoming easier to use with each newer version. A program is released with full functionality, and improved upon untill it reaches a mature level, and I think that to hold back releases untill they can be made to look cute, bubbly, and all around aol is to deny a lot of users a program that works fine for them.


So I vote:

I am a newbie, and I think linux is great :-)
 
Old 12-01-2003, 02:09 AM   #804
tonymartin
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Linux and Windows from an "Experienced" newbie

Hi, I call myself an "Experienced" newbie because of the number of times that I have installed Linux.

I have used MS since the days of DOS 3.x and still do, but not through choice. It took me 2 years to get a working Linux system (SUSE 7.X) Since then I have got Mandrake and Red Hat working OK. No I am not a total thicky, I am an ICT technician!

If fact 2 years ago I scrubbed Windows from my machine and replaced it with SuSE. Then after about 2 weeks my HDD got full and that totally trashed the install. Back to MS. Tried again 6 months later, could not get either a modem (yes I went out and brought an external modem), nor CD writing, not 3D acceleration, ......

Tried again a month ago, could not run because I have a new machine and SUSE (which I had yet again purchased) could and would not help me resolve this issue. I then put in an old SCSI card and drive installed Windows 2000 and then tried to install SUSE ontop and hope an update would cure the not seeing the seriel ATA or unknown north bridge problem. I couldn't even install because Windows 2000 was using NTFS!

My play machine downstairs is now SUSE 9 (although I still can't play DVDs or communicate with my Windows machine upstairs, run VNC or blow CDs.....)

Have I found Linux more reliable than Windows? No, I think others have found it more reliable because they do less on it. Do I think it will mature into something more reliable? Yes

Have I found Linux uses less resources than Windows? No see above

Is Linux improving? Yes, very much so and at an increasing rate.

Do I recommend Linux to members of the public? No, Linux is still to hard to fault find.

Do I recommend it to other nerds like myself? Yes.


Top things to make Linux more user friendly for myself would be.

1. This single most important thing is to make new program installs a simple click on an Icon.

2 Remote help via VNC for Linux Users. Sometimes, just to be shown something in a few seconds is all it takes. I cannot fault the friendlyness and helpfulness of the Linux community both on line and on person.

3. Easy Intergration with Windows networks, drives, etc.

4. Get linux to work with modems.

The most success I have had with Linux is SUSE, the installs are excellant, next, Mandrake, then Redhat.

If you are thinking of installing linux, go for it. However don't expect to be able to do everything that Windows does just yet unless you are the head of your local Mensa group 8) Even if you don't get sucess, keep revisiting Linux I really believe it will eventually take over from MS.

Good luck
Tony
 
Old 12-01-2003, 03:11 AM   #805
order99
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Dear GOD what a lot of posts! Can't believe I read them all.
But as far as user ease....
I'm a WIN98 user from my first computer(only four years ago)and I still feel that the computer is a magic box and I am a club-wielding savage.WIN98 held my hand,let me surf,play my handful of games and didn't hang that much.Pretty good for a 32-bit extension of Dos,really.All hardware came with its own drivers,all compatible thanks to the market situation.
Then I found out how much spyware clogged my system,heard the first reports of ethical malfeasance re' Microsoft,realized that the fellow who set up my system used a hacked copy of the OS...and heard about another OS called Linux.I picked up an older box cheap from Ebay,picked up distros like candy from an online marketer for two bucks a disk(to avoid dial-up hell),and sampled a half-dozen for the cost of a burger and fries.
WIN98 stayed on my main box-but began to mutate.Mozilla found its way there,as did some other snappy stuff.Large parts of the old OS were taken out(what Bill would allow to be removed)the startup menu slimmed,functions streamlined.
Getting off topic,I think.Anyway,i'm still a newbie,and I have Lycoris on my main box.Joe User has little time to tinker,and I don't either-Lycoris holds my hand as well as 98 ever did,has pretty good hardware support(had to download drivers for my cheap Lexmark z-13 printer,but they were no problem with the Installer Lycoris has) and I haven't done a single command line yet.Still,if time allows,I want to graduate from Joe User status,and when I do,Lycoris will let me have my command-line goodness as well-just like Linux should.BTW,support at Lycoris and the related forums as better than I hoped.I also recommend Knoppix for it's non-invasive operability.I recommend Red Hat 7.3 as well,(Lycoris edged it out on the main box due to better updates and having Flash,Acrobat,Java and Real plugins pre-installed,still learning to do that on my own)and Vector is trying to ease me into Slackware and alternate GUI's without the usual wild flailing on my part.I've heard great things about Icepack regarding first-time users,likewise Suse Personal 8.2-but the job and family eat up my free time,so i'll reserve judgement until I get to play with them.
My Point(AT LAST,we sigh in unison)-Linux can be as simple as any Microsoft system-and because it IS Linux,I can customize it to do whatever I want if I only dare.This and other forums are full of people willing to assist the process,and pages of add-ons in all the formats needed.Or I can stay Joe User-but in Linux it's MY choice.
I feel empowered-and I still fix my monitor by whacking it with stick!
 
Old 12-01-2003, 03:36 AM   #806
ricdave
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. This single most important thing is to make new program installs a simple click on an Icon.

Getting there with RPM, emerge, etc.

2 Remote help via VNC for Linux Users. Sometimes, just to be shown something in a few seconds is all it takes. I cannot fault the friendliness and helpfulness of the Linux community both on line and on person.

Unfortunately, Linux does require a learning curve. There are several companies which provide 24/7 fee based help desk support. LINUX: Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition (Version 1.0.0) is an excellent resource.

3. Easy Integration with Windows networks, drives, etc.

LinNeighborhood and remember work group name. Simpler than MS., actually.

4. Get linux to work with modems.

If you are using a standard hardware modem you should have no trouble. I have NEVER had to set up a modem.
 
Old 12-01-2003, 04:25 AM   #807
Velvet Elvis
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Well, thanks to insomnia, I just skimed 2/3 of this thread.

I agree with much of what's been said here. Linux could be a lot better in the UI department. I've got some coding skills and know quite a bit about interface design, hunan computer interaction, and such things. I'd love to contribute to the development of some UI project. Why don't I? Because I can't get a job in any IT related field and am currently working 40 hours a week making doughnuts just to pay bills and save up enough money to get my transmission fixed and buy an engagement ring for my gf.

I contribute a line of code here and there when I can, but that's all I can do.

Somthing many people fail to realise is that most all open source development is by and large a volenteer effort. People do what they can when they can. I'd love to spend all my time working on open source projects. The simple fact of the matter is that unless someone is willing to pay me to do so, I can't. That's all there is to it. I'm sure the same is true of most other people who have contributed to making linux what it is now.

If linux is ever going to be somthing that can stand up against micro$soft, everyone who uses it needs to contribute. If not in code, then in cash. More people need to buy boxed linux distrobutions and donate money to as many open source projects as they can.

Forgive my spelling, I've had more than a few beers, but I hope I made my point.
 
Old 12-01-2003, 04:32 AM   #808
ricdave
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<<< If linux is ever going to be something that can stand up against micro$soft, everyone who uses it needs to contribute. If not in code, then in cash. More people need to buy boxed linux distributions and donate money to as many open source projects as they can. >>>

While I would not touch either of these distros, both Lycoris and Lindows seem to be doing just that. Point and click installs and hand held as well as MS has ever done. And both are being sold by Wal Mart pre-installed. And damn cheap boxes they are.
 
Old 12-01-2003, 07:32 AM   #809
tommytomato
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Windows VS Linux

I look at it differently – for me – Windows VS Linux is the same as comparing a train vs a 4wd.

The train is an easier transport system than a 4wd, you just sit on the bloody thing, and press the button when you want to get off.

If you want to go to a cool camping spot in the bush tho .. your stuffed.. the train is ‘too easy’ to drive and cant do that……

If you’re an old granny that cant be bothered leanring to drive a 4wd ..
then train is the best thing and is appropriate .. but if you want to go camping in the bush .. then you got to learn how to drive a 4wd .. which is much much harder and more complicated


just my 2 cents worth


tommytomato
 
Old 12-01-2003, 08:45 AM   #810
Kovacs
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Quote:
Originally posted by Velvet Elvis
Because I can't get a job in any IT related field and am currently working 40 hours a week making doughnuts just to pay bills and save up enough money to get my transmission fixed and buy an engagement ring for my gf.
Totally off topic, but if you have good coding skills and a little entrepreneurial spirit there is absolutely no need to work making doughnuts (unless you enjoy it)... the internet abounds with self directed money making opportunities for the imaginative geek.
 
  


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