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Poll: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
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Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?

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Results will be available after the polls close.

The nominees are:

I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs.
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way.
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is.

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Old 04-12-2003, 10:13 PM   #61
unSpawn
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If stating the truth as one sees it is not acceptable, I guess it's not a very good place for somebody that likes to be honest.
Tell me, what are you *really* trying to say?
 
Old 04-13-2003, 12:58 AM   #62
willn3mnw
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Make Linux easier for the general population! Please.

Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Parr
neenee,

If Windows is like a Car without a Steering wheel then Linux is like a car that requires a 10 page manual for starting the Ignition, using the Turn signal, and stepping on the gas or break.

Would you want to drive a car that took 8hrs to learn how to drive just to make a 15 minute trip?

I couldn't resist...
Hmm...interesting analogy. To be honest, the way some people drive I think they need to more...Allot More!

Something that seems to be missing from the discussion is the fact that Windows and Linux come from different origins. Linux and the tools that support the O/S evolved from the Unix world (Robust Servers) unlike the Windows (Easy to use Desktop) pedigree of MS-DOS, Windows 3.1, 95, etc.. So the question is can the robust Linux environment retain it's powerful attributes while also being usable on the Desktop by Windows users. I believe both goals can be achieved...are being achieved.

On using the Command Line: Linux does not force anyone to use the Command Line. Neither does Windows. Many Shell applications have GUI equivalents. If you need or want to then you might gain some productivity by using the Shell for just a small amount of effort (IE, reading and typing). Seems to me that the issue is not the Command Line per se, it is that Shells on Linux provide far more robust tools than does the Windows Command set. The Windows command set has always left allot to be desired.

On the question of being 'usable' I think Microsoft has indoctrinated computer users into believing that everything on a computer can be done much faster using a GUI. That premise is simply false. Just examine the simple function of 'Map A Network Drive' in Windows.
At the command prompt you could simply type NET USE <drive letter> <share name> and be done with it. In addition, put those commands in a file to be executed as needed. Doing the same task from the GUI you have to go through one of several Mouse-Click paths to connect to a network drive. That is one time through the sequence for each network drive needed. While doing this once a day may seem trivial, if the office worker has to use several network resources the time adds up.

And then of course there is the fact that one is mostly Open Source while the other is all Proprietary.


Linux, because friends don't let friends use Windows.

Registered Linux user # 306118

Bye!

Last edited by willn3mnw; 04-13-2003 at 01:06 AM.
 
Old 04-13-2003, 01:42 AM   #63
Paul Parr
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jonr,
Thanks for the support. I appreciate it.

unSpawn,
Get your head out of the sand! What? I can't make an observation in my own opinion with out you arrogantly insult my intelligence by insisting I stole it from somewhere else.
How am I attempting to create divide and discord? (It sounds like thats what your attempting to do.) I am trying to understand Linux and the overall community from end to end, and figure out the best Distro for me. I am finding a lot of clarity in these threads. Except from people like yourself. How do you justify taking cheap shots at people simple because they don't happen to share your opinion? Tha's just shallow. Am I don't think there is any place in the linux community for that type of attitude.
I value constructive criticism if it helps us grow, but thats just blatant criticism for the sake of critisim.
Everyone else was getting along nicely until you decide to start throwing stones. I would expect more from a moderator.



As far as Natural evolution and Improvement goes, lets just leave it at....its in the eye of the beholder, too each his own. There is plenty Linux distributions out there to satisfy all out varied tastes, from the novice to the pro. I know what I where i would like to see it grow...you may disagree and thats fine by me. Whatever makes you happy. Just don't slam me for my opinion. Ok.

I'm done.
 
Old 04-13-2003, 03:33 AM   #64
slakmagik
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Re: Make Linux easier for the general population! Please.

Quote:
Originally posted by willn3mnw
Something that seems to be missing from the discussion is the fact that Windows and Linux come from different origins. Linux and the tools that support the O/S evolved from the Unix world (Robust Servers) unlike the Windows (Easy to use Desktop) pedigree of MS-DOS, Windows 3.1, 95, etc..
Actually, most people these days are using W2K or XP and the GUI comes from the Win95 line, which is completely different from 3x, but the OS is NT. W2K is NT 5.0 and XP is NT 5.1 whereas Win98 is Windows 4.0 and ME is Windows 4.9. The 9x line is the 32-bit 'improved interface' version of the 16-bit DOS/3x. And NT, in turn, was what happened when IBM and MS's partnership ended - MS initially developed OS/2 with IBM, then changed their mind and went to work on NT. So OS/2 for IBM and NT for MS. The NT line just borrowed the 3x gui at first, and the Win95 interface somewhere around NT 3.5 or 3.51, I think.

MS just played name games with their systems to switch people over to a different OS without most of them knowing - calling ME like it wasn't the successor to 95/98 and calling "Windows" 2000 like it was, and then switching it around again after that like XP was the successor to ME now that Dos and 9x are dead and XP is all there is.

Kinda pointless, but I thought I'd just say. Under the hood, XP doesn't look anything like DOS. 9x is the '32-bit patch to a 16-bit patch' to the "8-bit, 4-bit, 2-bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition" phrase. NT's a straight 32-bit multi-tasking, multi-user system like *nix. If anything, it's Linux that's more similar to DOS/Win3x with the complete separability of OS and GUI and the emphasis on CLI and scripts.

And if that boring post didn't lull the brewing flame war to sleep nothing will. *g*
 
Old 04-13-2003, 05:05 AM   #65
yowwww
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I think it's good to make it more accessible with certain distros (like Red Hat and MDK) but still have the choice to use others like Gentoo for example.

I started with Red Hat and found it a bit challenging in the very beginning cause I was brand new to linux, now I feel a lot more informed.

For those who want to use a newbie guide, check out my guide in the sig below.
 
Old 04-15-2003, 03:12 PM   #66
Paul Parr
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Here is a interesting brief write up for those interested in the Why's and Why nots of using Linux.

Its called Linux for the Masses and Other Popular Myths.

http://eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca/~tburgess/local/linux.html

Last edited by Paul Parr; 04-15-2003 at 03:14 PM.
 
Old 04-15-2003, 04:00 PM   #67
RonRussell
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I'm one of those who wishes that either the O.S. were easier to learn, or that the O.S. wasn't so easy to mess up.
I teach for a living, so I feel that I am willing and able to learn how to install and use the O.S., however there are numerous times when it seems to just break down, through no fault of the user. And often, these breakdowns are things that would never happen in a Microsoft product under any circumstances. When these happen, I don't think it is unreasonable to either A) find explicit documentation on how to fix the problem or B) find advice from someone else who has had the same problem.
For example, currently I can't access my floppy drive in SuSE Linux 7.1. When attempting to mount the floppy, either using the desktop icon, or in a terminal window, I receive the error "/dev/fd0 is not a block device'. I don't know how the problem actually began, because it WAS working, then it wasn't.
I've asked for help on this forum, and several others, and no one seems to have any idea what is going on. Even though the documentation which came with SuSE is very comprehensive, it doesn't have a word about this problem. So, it looks like the only way to solve the problem is to completely reinstall the O.S.
I don't think such a problem is even possible in Windows, at least I've never experienced it, since the days of Windows 3.1. True, the whole O.S. may crash from time to time, BUT, and this is a very important point, the crash NEVER seems to BREAK the O.S. in Windows. It crashes, then you reboot, watch the blue screen while it checks for defects on the drive, and its up again ready for business none the worse for the experience.
Eventually, I'll probably purchase a newer distribution, perhaps SuSE 8.2, and hope that such fragility has been corrected.

Ron
 
Old 04-15-2003, 04:13 PM   #68
iceman47
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Everyone here used to be a newbie at some time. Fact is that most of them never b*tched about the fact that GNU/Linux isn't user fiendly but just accepted they'd have to learn and they did.
GNU/Linux *is* user fiendly -look at Mandy and SuSE- , it can and will do *everything* you want it to do, just stop whining that "linux" is hard and start learning it.
 
Old 04-15-2003, 04:27 PM   #69
Paul Parr
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Quote:
Originally posted by iceman47
Everyone here used to be a newbie at some time. Fact is that most of them never b*tched about the fact that GNU/Linux isn't user fiendly but just accepted they'd have to learn and they did.
GNU/Linux *is* user fiendly -look at Mandy and SuSE- , it can and will do *everything* you want it to do, just stop whining that "linux" is hard and start learning it.
Hey come on now Iceman47, Thats just not fair.

Do we have to go through that argument again?

Not everyone has the time to invest in learning the hardway. Nor does everyone want to. Some people really want to have the benefits of being linux savy, but it takes time. How much time do you think is enough, BTW?

If you have a family, a job, and other priorities that leave you with maybe 1 hr or 2 hrs a night to invest in learning it, then there is not much time left to enjoy using it. Linux does have a fairly challenging learning curve involved. Especially if were talking Server vs desktop distro.

(I really hate when people generalize everyone, people are different with different needs, and learning abilities.) So stop being a dictator please. You're not helping promote a welcoming enviroment. To each his own, but don't slam others for wanting a suitable easy to use version for themselves. You like it difficult then thats you're perogative, but you come off sounding Bias.


Last edited by Paul Parr; 04-15-2003 at 04:35 PM.
 
Old 04-15-2003, 04:34 PM   #70
Palin
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Quote:
Here is a interesting brief write up for those interested in the Why's and Why nots of using Linux.

Its called Linux for the Masses and Other Popular Myths.

http://eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca/~tburgess/local/linux.html
Very nice article, I agree with most of what he had to say about linux but the one thing which he did not cover was the reason behind the anti microsoft movement. The fact that microsoft wants increasing control over your machine.

I started using linux again because I wanted a change, wanted something fresh and new to learn. As I got farther into I started reading things about the things microsoft was doing and now I use linux because I no longer wish to sign EULAs that take control of my machine away from me. I've found that I can anything I could in windows on my linux machine. Takes a little more work getting the system up but it is worth it. Now when more games come out native for linux I'll be all set.
 
Old 04-15-2003, 04:42 PM   #71
iceman47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Parr
(I really hate when people generalize everyone, people are different with different needs, and learning abilities.) So stop being a dictator please. You're not helping promote a welcoming enviroment. To each his own, but don't slam others for wanting a suitable easy to use version for themselves. You like it difficult then thats you're perogative, but you come off sounding Bias.
I'm not slamming people, the easy to use version is out there, it's called mandrake and it's practicly as easy as windows.
People just have to learn that GNU/Linux isn't windoze and that you will have to learn at least something to make the magic happen.
People are always prepared to help with problems here, so that can't be an issue.
 
Old 04-15-2003, 04:44 PM   #72
Paul Parr
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I agree Palin,
I think many of us are fed up with giving up our souls to microsoft.

Go to this link on Lindows Site and click on the MS Licensing demo, its a good one..

http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_screenshots.php

P.S. - I too am a hardcore 3D gamer and I would love to have a Linux distro to fit my needs in that area too. I think from some of the postings I see on these threads that some people have such closd minds to the variety of potential Linux users out there. Not every one wants Linux just to be a server. Yet we often get hammered for suggesting it be used for anything else.

"Linux has great potential...let it free!"
 
Old 04-15-2003, 04:51 PM   #73
acid_kewpie
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no one is hammering anyone for that. but you say you don't want to give your money to M$, so why give it to Lindows, with Michael Robertson trying to be a baby Bill?
 
Old 04-15-2003, 05:01 PM   #74
Paul Parr
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Quote:
Originally posted by acid_kewpie
no one is hammering anyone for that. but you say you don't want to give your money to M$, so why give it to Lindows, with Michael Robertson trying to be a baby Bill?

acid_kewpie,
Another good point.



Keep it FREE!
 
Old 04-15-2003, 05:46 PM   #75
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Heh ...

this thread starts to look like this one ...

Quote:
P.S. - I too am a hardcore 3D gamer and I would love to have a Linux distro to fit my needs in that area too. I think from some of the postings I see on these threads that some people have such closd minds to the variety of potential Linux users out there. Not every one wants Linux just to be a server. Yet we often get hammered for suggesting it be used for anything else.
If you want to have your shooters working
on Linux, ask the Game manufacturer to port
them :P instead of complaining how Linux isn't
Windows...

Cheers,
Tink
 
  


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