Tinkster,

I found that posting all right, with no trouble whatsoever and... I also found your very obnoxious posting there, to wit...

Now, there is no good reason why your posting there couldn't have instead been...

My example of what you could have posted there gives exactly the same information as your obnoxious posting does, but it shows courtesy and respect towards others (wow^100!). It even has a lot greater chance of getting those people to read that documentation than your original obnoxious posting would.

It is as if you have to rub people's noses in the dirt each time you "feel put upon to give an answer" to what you consider, per your whims, to be a "stupid question," which derives, as I said before, from the fool notion of "I was made miserable, so now I will make others miserable."

This attitude colors all of your arguments and all of your examples that you have been using in this thread to defend that same attitude. It would seem that you would want to do whatever you can to continue being obnoxious to other people. Why? There is no good reason for it. This is the whole point that I have been trying to get across and it seems that you don't want to get it, and, I am tired of going around in circles with this nonsense as well, so this is it for me.

xode,

I am in communication with the devs, and i can tell you that documentation is one of the most important positions on the to-do list, not sure what the status is today though ( oops i missed a couple of dev meetings! )

xode - if somebody tells you to read the fine manual and you don't like it, then *don't* rtfm. endif.

People here *don't* generally say rtfm but, if they do, it's a very concise directive, much like 'ls -lrtF'. (Or even 'ls -rtfm'.) It's efficient. It's Linux. Deal.

Whenever anybody posts one of their first posts asking 'How can I learn more' I always say 'man man' or 'info info' or 'look in /usr/docs' or 'google it' or 'search here at LQ' and post back here *if* you've read it *and* you don't understand. And that's said so often, in that way, that it's ridiculous that anyone even *has* to say 'rtfm' in any other context and, if they do, it's even more ridiculous to complain about the tone in which it's said.

It's not about your pride or your vanity or your dignity or your fuzzy feelings. It's about your knowledge and abilities.

If they didn't show the initial courtesy I was
talking about earlier, which would have been
to use the search, maybe scroll the first two
pages worth of the slackware forum instead of
kicking off a new thread that wouldn't have
happened, but I do appreciate that you don't
think like this. Tell me where you live and I'll
invite myself over sometime ;)

And my posting wasn't obnoxious, it was brief.
If they can't handle brief they can wait for someone
else to answer ...

And if you will you can as well go out and
find 2000 posts of mine that have a completely
different ring to them. As for your attempt to dis
me and my "work" here, I have heard you, and
you're wrong. In both your judgment of my
behaviour in general (How often id you claim
I'm using RTFM all the time?), and the judgment
of what decent, courteous behaviour on this forum
(or forums in general, for that matter - go read
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html)
is... you're trying to correct the people who run
this board (no, I don't own it, I'm not a mod, but
I spend a hell of a lot of time supporting newbies,
and if the impudent ones among them wouldn't
tie me up with the need for "laying a philosophical
foundation right" I could do even more.).

Cheers,
Tink

Please keep me posted. What would really be nice is for the documentation to include a relational database where you input a problem that you are having and it returns a list of commands that are expected to solve the problem.

The other area that really needs to be beefed up is a tutorial on linux as a whole, from the ground up, beginning with the kernel and what, in detail, it does, and working through the boot loaders, the command line, X windows, QT, KDE, Gnome and finishing with all of the top level programs that you see as a user. Along the way, it would also, state in detail, which parts of the linux file structure relate to what part of the linux operating system, with special detail given to configuration files.

xode: can i assume by you total ignoreing my last post to you, you are admiting you were wrong in your accusation againsed me ?

or did i just manage to word my post in a way you couldnt twist to make me look bad ?

cant we all just getalong :P

I think we need a group hug!

/me pokes the thread with a stick:"Is it dead yet?" :}

Cheers,
Tink

well, it's the first time i read this post and... ans u mught think i had no time to read everything (i just read the first page and a half ), but i want to explain my opinion:

I reckon, that one of the best things of linux is its ability to be addpated for the user needs. Some users can't do it bythemselves because they are nbot programmers or engeneers in computer and they just want to install&use. So, linux is both complex and easy at the same time, beacuse of the wide range of distros in the market.

I think that linux is easier than Windoze. I think that windows is not easy, it's opaque, and this usually makes things really difficult when u have to solve a problem and translate the "usefriendly" messages (which usually hides relevant information) to "technical messages".
The first distro I installed was Mandrake. I loved it, because it was really easy without hiding important info. Have u ever tried to make a partition or a multiple boot while instaling windows?? I also was amazed by the great amount of packages it had... there was a CDripper an divx codecs into the OS installation cd!! that was great. I hate when, after installing windows, i have to install everything individually (Office, file extractor, drivers, cd burning, antivirus (which is not needed in linux), media palying...).
Also, if a newbie (everybody has been a newbie, no body is born with the knowledge) wants to install anything, just by doubleclicking in an rpmfile he it, without strange installers or paths... and the same when uninstalling them.

Obviously, if you like computers world, you start to try to get knowledge, start to compile the programs instead of downloading binarie files, start to personalize your distro, to try new things and distros, to know more about whou the linux "engine" works, etc...

I think that nobody form Windoze can say that Mandrake (or Red Hat, which is nowadays really easy to use) is more difficult than Windoze.

cya!

I think linux must and can be made easier to use while even improving/enhancing its strengths and making it more reliable. It should not be intentende for the hackers, but the install&use kind of people.
This is what microsoft fears, they tend to produce "easy to use" software for the inexperienced user with little or no technical quality. Linux will overcome windoze when average users can migrate to linux easier.
In this regard I would like to cite some comment published along with the halloween memo (hacked and commented out by Eric Raymond) it says:

The great fear at Microsoft is that somebody will come behind them and make products that not only are more reliable, faster, and more secure, but are also easy to use, fun, and make people more productive. That would mean that Microsoft had merely served as a pioneer and taken all the arrows in the back, while we who have better products become a second wave to homestead on Microsoft's tamed territory. Well, sounds like a good idea to me.

ssobeht: I liked your moto "Let's GPL the World!"

Linux is designed to have an operator, servant who will spend thousands of hours trying to set it up and keep up with very frequent updates.

What most people are forgetting is the basic concept of the Operating System.

It’s a workbench with some tools and objective is to put a project on that workbench and start to work.

Now compare what you could do on Linux and what you could do on Windows.

Firstly, instead of learning how to use your tools, you have to be a slave to workbench!

In both cases, Linux and Windows! But you will have to spend much more time on Linux.

What MS has done, they have simplified many features of their workbench and now we could do a lot with Win XP and programs running on it.

Now, what can’t be done on Linux?

Music. I’m pro muzo and I’m doing pro recordings. Also I’m doing pro graphics, using Adobe and PSP.

In both cases, when I would switch to Linux, I would unemployed!

Cubase. Logic, DigiDesign, Cakewalk, Sound Forge, Wave Labs and thousands of tools I use are not available in Linux.

Graphics. Similar thing is happening here and while I could learned and use some high quality programs for graphics but… is very few of those ones and if I would be a pro graphic designer, I would loose my job quickly on Linux.

We have an other option and ONLY price is the factor, which stops masses to use that operating system.

MAC! I can do ALL of above on MAC!

What chances Linux has in current form?

It’s just a workbench without many tools. You can’t do much on it! Beside Internet and word processing it’s just a toy for enthusiasts who are boasting to be smart and different then others because they mastered to have a workbench on their machines.

And is clean.

And they are doing almost nothing on it because it does not have many tools.

When Adobe, DIGI, Steinberg and many other will decide to go Linux, than Linux has SOME chances to get to massive market.

Still, MAC is a great and preferred option and will be hard to beat.

For masses Windoze will be king for many years.

So far Linux is sentenced to be use only by small group of enthusiasts.

In one Star Trek movie they went back in time of year 2000. Kirk tried to use a computer.

He said “Computer start!”.

Computer didn’t.

“You must switch power first” – Kirk was advised.

“You are joking, right?”

Just put CD with a game in Linux machine.

And what?

Nothing!

Think about it!

I do believe VER STRONGLY that free OS with no frigging spying s/ware, no activation crap and frigging stickers on computers, no OEM crap and without back doors is

THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING and FUTURE OF HUMANKIND!

No frigging Big Brother watching and telling you, where the hell you should go today!

All these licenses, patent’s (often frozen and removed from use) are making a great harm for us, earthlings.

I have great hope for Linux but so far it is just a dream. ;-(

IMHO the trick would be to make Linux similar to Windoze. The way Linux works should be easy implementing trick of Win XP and IMHO Linux would not suffer by being in many aspects identical just ON THE SURFACE to Windows. Whenever is possible, could be better and I think that programs allowing running typical Windoze programs on Linux are winners at the fist stage.

Maybe some slight cooperation with guys like Steinberg, Adobe will make Linux friendly to Adobe or Steinberg or to ID software. ( I love Q3A!)

Installers for drivers and installers for programs. These HAVE TO put ALL files in right folders and the process of installing, let's say Quake 3 Arena have to be as quick and in XP or... FASTER!

Linux has a huge chance to reach the threshold of domination over M$.

All China goes on Linux and Linux community should speed up that path and make Linux available for masses.

To make it happen, all things should be simple. Couple clicks and program is installed or... perfectly removed.

Any commands typed is a curse of Linux and general public will NEVER accept it.

Windows is hard enough for most users!

Anything harder than Windows has no chances to be loved by masses.

Serious programs for serious work do require serious study of them. Photoshop or Pro Tools needs serious study to be a pro.

The goal is to produce pro product on programs. Not to be a slave to an operating system.

OS is just basic and you should not learn how to work.

No need to use a brain to turn key in ignition. Use you head WHEN you drive. That’s where the head is needed BADLY.

As soon as Linux community will understand that concept of what OS should be, than Linux will chave chances to replace Windows.

So far I see linux as network/internet tool.

A toy for fans who love to prove that they also CAN use it and show that they are different - read- better than others.

That's all.

smcoptyltd,
while I agree that linux can be made easier, it is in fact you who does not know what an operating system is, not the linux community.
You are confused. Paintshop Pro and Cakewalk etc, were not written by the maintainers of windows.
The authors could have created a version for linux. That has nothing to do with linux.

To use your analogy, linux is a superior workbench in many regards. The tools - are seperate. And if you think Adobe Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro have no equivalent in linux, try The Gimp.

smcoptyltd,

I hear ya man, I have the same gripes.
However, I would never use Windows as a web server for security
and stability purposes.

I recently purchase SuSE 9.0 Personal Desktop for $39 and I love it as an OS.
But, for productivity and graphics, I still need my Windows based
programs for compatibility.
Did you know that some of those programs can easily be ran on
Linux using http://codeweavers.com including Adobe Photoshop!

One thing I find very interesting is that when the blaster worm
hit; which exploited major security holes in Windows, around that
same time many Red Hat and other disto security holes also became
apparent? Such as gaining root access to servers through distro
vulnerabilities, OUCH.

Almost sounds like a conspiracy, one team against the other, scheming and
plotting about who can find the holes and expose them to the public to
discredit the other. …or maybe just coincidence.

Software is software and I think most programmers would tell you
that if there is a way in, someone will find it and exploit it.
The nice thing about most Linux distros is that when there is a whole
found, people soon find out, hopefully before to much damage is done
and patch the sucker. THANK U OPEN SOURCE!!!

Whereas with Micro$oft, that port 135 hole was there since 1995.
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA, how many Windows computers and
servers are still compromised!!!??? Probably hundreds of thousands
of backdoors everywhere. BTW, if you don’t know what I am referring to:

“TrendLabs has received several infection reports of this new worm, which exploits the RPC DCOM BUFFER OVERFLOW. This vulnerability in a Windows Distributed Component Object Model (DCOM) Remote Procedure Call (RPC) interface allows an attacker to gain full access and execute any code on a target machine, leaving it compromised.”

http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/viru...WORM_MSBLAST.A

Smcoptyltd, you have a point, for sure. I agree when you say that people pay attention to programs, not OSes.

Let me reply to a few specific topics:

"Linux is designed to have an operator, servant who will spend thousands of hours trying to set it up and keep up with very frequent updates."

Windows too. In a corporate environment there's an admin who does the dirty job. At home people get used to defrag, scan, or buy norton stuff. Notice that the user can manually do all alone, but lots of users buy norton. Anyway, there's always an admin.

"What MS has done, they have simplified many features of their workbench and now we could do a lot with Win XP and programs running on it."

Xp is a nice tool, indeed. But if you look at Linux some five or more years ago you will notice that it has made a great deal of progress. Mandrake is a workhorse in this specific point, but so is SuSE and Redhat.

"MAC! I can do ALL of above on MAC!"

Yes you can. For now. The future of MAC is uncertain. Several developers have left the platform, it is proprietary and closed and you can't disassemble a MAC and replace stuff the way you do to a PC. To my knowledge it is restricted to a few fans, mainly in Europe. I wouldn't place my bet on MAC as the choice for the future.

"It’s just a workbench without many tools. You can’t do much on it! Beside Internet and word processing it’s just a toy for enthusiasts who are boasting to be smart and different then others because they mastered to have a workbench on their machines."

This is the sad part. These geeks won't see that we need people adopting linux, if we are to survive (in the long run). Partly, Unix had problems with mass-use troughout history due to similar reasons, internal dissension, fightings, arrogance and stuff. Very sad.

"When Adobe, DIGI, Steinberg and many other will decide to go Linux, than Linux has SOME chances to get to massive market."

These corporations will only go linux if linux presents as an interesting comercial option, not for ideology. And this will happen when we have enough critical mass. And having critical mass means that we have to build friendlier linuxes. So, you see, to quote a commonplace, everthing is interconnected.

"No need to use a brain to turn key in ignition. Use you head WHEN you drive. That’s where the head is needed BADLY."

Also when you choose which car to buy.

"Cubase. Logic, DigiDesign, Cakewalk, Sound Forge, Wave Labs and thousands of tools I use are not available in Linux."

No, they aren't. But these companies have chosen win because it is dominant. If win loose its position, these companies will migrate, YOU CAN BET THAT.
Yet, the price to be paid for having a MS selling win to people is very high. It's monopoly have emptied several good software efforts, and hardware vendors do not open their specs for anyone who can write a driver (non disclosure contracts with MS). So, because in the past MS was picked by IBM to write the OS for PC and we accepted it, we have to stick to it for eternity!

To conclude this long post, if one sees the growing curve of users switching to linux, it is clear that the threshold point will come (I would say in the "half run", others things equal...) and linux will be an atractive option for Adobe, DIGI and etc...

For now, it is, indeed, restricted. But remember that the 10% of technically-guided users who adopt linux are exactly those who solve the average-users computing problems, those who install OS and software, and those who guide people. It's a small group, but with more power of decision. They installed win3.1 for their friends and co-workers to stop using the typing machine, so if they wanna install linux and teach people, they'll do it.

Unix has been around for 30 years or more. Linux is the "pop" version of it, the fancy one. It was never so popular.