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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-11-2003, 09:07 AM   #46
Paul Parr
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Smile Wow have I touched a nerve here or what!


***45 replys , and almost 350 views in less then a day.

This thread has definately caught some attention. Wow!

I want to thank everyone for their comments, and all the pros and cons of Linux, and the (shall remain unamed) alternative OS's.

What I have learned from this thread is simply this...
How you use Linux depends on what your needs are, what and where you use it for. Do you use it at work, or at home, do you like to play games, or program. Is it a requirement that you setup a complex network, or is it a stand alone system. Do you use it primarily as a server or as home entertainment, or productivity.

I think what is really at the core of what Linux is all about is FREEDOM, freedom of choice and flexibily, and evolution. I guess what most newbies like myself need time to discover is that Linux does not come in only Vanilla, there are many flavors of Linux, and it comes down to what flavor each of use like the best. Some people may not like any of the flavors either, and thats ok too.

In the last few years that I have been testing the Linux Waters I have turned tail and run back to Windows, but I've always kept my eye on Linux because it had something attactive and maybe even additive to me. One thing I have noticed in that time is that Linux is Evolving at an amazing rate and its becoming much more of what I personally like. I like what I'm seeing these days, choices that weren't there before. For me I think the Linux packages like Xandros, Lycoris, and maybe even Lindows are far more suited to the novice Linux Desktop user (Except what really sucks is none of these are FREE, although low cost, which forces many newbies to opt for testing linux on the available FREE distros). For other experienced users they are not their flavor. I wish that Linux community would just stop banging each other over the head with the "One Linux" for all mentallity. Like I see before, not everyone is a seasoned professional, nor does everyone want to be.

I have to say that I think that the Linux developers are listening to the needs to the GROWING Linux population. Even companies like Redhat and Mandrake are offering a wider range of Linux packages to try and reach all audiences. For example, Redhat has a standard version and a professional version, and during install they ask what type of install you want Desktop, Server, etc. Mandrake has like 6 different versions of their product. They are also releasing newer improved flavors like Redhat 9, and Mandrake 9.1 as the most recent examples. (With things like Gnome 2.2, and KDE 3.1 which have made major strides towards more user friendly GUIs for the Novice users like me.) Things are looking good!

So please you seasoned pros, don't be so bias towards us novices, we want to evolve too, but at our own pace, and in an enviroment we are comfortable with. So if you Love using the command line because you have used it forever and thats what your use too, or just prefer then kudos to you, but don't expect the rest of the world to follow your example, some of us have broader appreciation for the richer flavors. You may like simple vanilla, but I like Rocky Road.

One thing I think most of us can agree on is we like (Ice Cream). i.e Linux.

Keep up the good work Linux!

***Power to the People***
 
Old 04-11-2003, 10:27 AM   #47
tcaptain
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Paul, I think you got it

We're not biased against novices tho...despite some of the things I said. I do try to help, I love it. Its called (to me) paying back for the help I got.

But its more fulfilling to help someone who wants to learn and just needs a leg up than someone who doesn't want to learn and wants linux to be like windows
 
Old 04-11-2003, 11:11 AM   #48
twan
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i think the SuSE Setup system (was it yast in the install already?) was very easy

just like the xp install. Just read the things and click next or ok
 
Old 04-11-2003, 11:21 AM   #49
jonr
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There's one pretty indisputable advantage of a Linux install over a Windows one: you don't have to sign your life away--sometimes several times!

And you don't have to reboot (usually).

I guess that makes two advantages.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 12:52 PM   #50
Paul Parr
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One last thing I want to add is that I have come to notice many hardcore users seem to want to keep things complicated and get offended when we newbies ask for easier alternatives. They don't want it to go mainstream, they want to keep it all to themselves for some weird reason, but I can't understand the logic to this, as it servers to prevent the natural evolution and improvement of Linux. Its like saying why should I drive if I know how to walk. I just don't get it. Are they afraid of Linux becoming more widely accepted as the better alternative to the other GUI based OS's out there, or do they just want to be completely different?


Thanks again everyone.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 01:08 PM   #51
busbarn
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I think they're afraid that everything they are used to and like might be ruined. I don't mind things being simplified, but as I learn more about linux and how it runs and what I can do with it, I long for that much more independance from all the wizards and stuff. It might just come down to the old saying "When you finally get something you really really like and can use and can work with, they change it and you can't get it anymore."
 
Old 04-12-2003, 01:21 PM   #52
david_ross
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I think that's a |----- and you just hit it on the
 
Old 04-12-2003, 01:26 PM   #53
mcleodnine
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Parr
One last thing I want to add is that I have come to notice many hardcore users seem to want to keep things complicated and get offended when we newbies ask for easier alternatives. They don't want it to go mainstream, they want to keep it all to themselves for some weird reason, but I can't understand the logic to this, as it servers to prevent the natural evolution and improvement of Linux. Its like saying why should I drive if I know how to walk. I just don't get it. Are they afraid of Linux becoming more widely accepted as the better alternative to the other GUI based OS's out there, or do they just want to be completely different?


Thanks again everyone.
Quite the contrary. It's just that the complaint mantra of "too many options" gets annoying after a while. Linux (GNU/Linux) comes in many different flavors. Accept that. There are several different distributions to choose from and software is continuously being built into nifty RPM/apt/pkgtool packages for end users to install in their distribution of choice.

Lindows is attempting to go 'mainstream' - we'll wait and see how that works out.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 02:24 PM   #54
slakmagik
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Thanks, jonr.

Regarding what mcleodnine quoted, I obviously have my issues with Linux *g* but I'd have to dispute the idea that easier and mainstream and "the natural evolution and improvement of Linux" go together. I think that's where some resistance comes from - if you removed 90% of the command line options they'd be easier to use but wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful. This wouldn't be an improvement. And if Linux becomes just as GUI-oriented as Windows and loses the focus of the command line, this wouldn't be an improvement. My only real gripe is making some sense out of what confronts the user - any user - as chaos. I'd like more prioritization and steps or levels, along with cutting out simply useless complexity - and when you have something as powerful as Linux, it's going to be complex - and if it's complex, it's a harder struggle to keep unecessary complexity from creeping in and taking over. * And it's not drive vs. walk - well, it is in that walking gives you stronger muscles and that's better for you - but more like a stick vs. automatic. Performance drivers don't want automatics.

But while most people are free of it, there probably is some simple, "I use Linux, ooh, I'm a guru - but if *this* moron can use Linux, then I'm not so special anymore." I don't think that's primarily it, though.

* Two gripes - I still think it's utterly stupid that all the keys of my keyboard don't work properly and similar archaic cruft that's treasured and preserved in Linux - though maybe it's just the flipside of being able to run Linux on a 386 - I can also run it with a 1975 keyboard.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 03:36 PM   #55
mcleodnine
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digiot - yeah a point that we should all be considering is that it's more about what distribution of linux is involved, rather than just talking about "linux".

I guess I have a case of raw nerves whenever this topic comes up. It happens all too frequently both here at LQ an in 'real' life. I do get tired of being called narrow-minded or elitist by people whose only exposure to computing has been through one channel of OS's. While I won't claim that my experience with all the available OS's available is comprehensive, I still maintinan that I have used, abused, installed, removed, and accidentally partitioned lots of them.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 04:06 PM   #56
jonr
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I'm not going to criticize anybody for being elitist, even if they are elitist--because I've got a fairly strong streak of elitism myself, in some areas of life (music, literature, politics...you get the idea).

I just got through with a very brief trial of Knoppix (via CD-ROM) and enjoyed that little tour, will return to it later when I have more time. The experience reminded me that whenever I boot Linux, I find myself looking forward to using my machine--while the opposite was true with Windows, and I would frequently curse as the thing took forever to churn through its maze of who-knows-what--and I'd frequently have to boot AGAIN because something didn't work right the first time round.

No matter what difficulties I've had with getting started in Linux, and I've had plenty so far and am sure I'll have more of them: I still enjoy the feeling of freedom from corporate manipulation and servitude.

That, as much as the speed and stability (once I get things going!) of Linux, is what attracted me and keeps me here.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 04:45 PM   #57
Mara
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Parr
One last thing I want to add is that I have come to notice many hardcore users seem to want to keep things complicated and get offended when we newbies ask for easier alternatives. They don't want it to go mainstream, they want to keep it all to themselves for some weird reason, but I can't understand the logic to this, as it servers to prevent the natural evolution and improvement of Linux. Its like saying why should I drive if I know how to walk. I just don't get it. Are they afraid of Linux becoming more widely accepted as the better alternative to the other GUI based OS's out there, or do they just want to be completely different?
What do you mean by 'complicated'? CLI? If it's CLI, it only looks that way. Usually all important/often used commands are in history and 5-6 up arrows and I've got it. Configuration files as a method to configure a program is also usually easier (especially for a person who can't memorize the short names used in GUI configuration tools, configuration files options are usually easier and 'search' option in any editor gives good results).

I want things simple. And I make things simple. I like a nice GUI. I can spend a whole day configuring it. But I like CLI, too. I can like both, right?

Most Linux users want freedom and flexibility (and security and... ). Freedom and flexibility doesn't come with 'ease to use'. A system can be easy to use when it's flexible only when IMHO the flexibility is hidden. And that's wwhat may be the reason people seem to 'make Linux hard'.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 06:44 PM   #58
PlanetNEO
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I had a similar experience to Paul. Tried Linux a couple times, went back to Windows. But this last install Linux "stuck" and it's still happily chugging along on the wife's old eMachine. Yes, the distro improved a little, but the biggest change was in me. The light bulb finally came on.

Before I was always hoping Linux would become more like Windows, now I'm starting to appreciate the difference. I'm starting to like Linux BECAUSE it's different. Some of the reasons Windows is easy are some of the things that make it a security freak show.

Do we really want Linux to dumb down to the masses? To pander to the shallow end of the tech pool and assign root as the default account because users can't figure out how to switch between accounts? It's fine like it is. Reminds of the days on the Internet before Compuserve and AOL came along. Enjoy this time while it lasts.

And speaking of changing mindset, I wonder how long before we realize a full power Windows PC for every user on the network is insane? Especially in a business setting. I'm starting to get more thin client oriented. Web services and Linux thin clients. Yeah.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 07:14 PM   #59
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You've been pushing this argument twice now...

One last thing I want to add is that I have come to notice many hardcore users seem to want to keep things complicated and get offended when we newbies ask for easier alternatives. They don't want it to go mainstream, they want to keep it all to themselves for some weird reason, but I can't understand the logic to this, as it servers to prevent the natural evolution and improvement of Linux.
This is an observation you've read about in other people's rants. Such observations, and the opinions they build, serve nothing but division and discord. If you *did* come up with this observation all by yourself (which I obviously doubt), please point me to some clear examples of it so we all may learn from it. Besides that all, please explain, if you can, what is "the natural evolution and improvement of Linux" and how you became the authority, to decide what is and what's not, in that field. If not, please refrain from using other people's propaganda for justifying your own agenda.
 
Old 04-12-2003, 09:07 PM   #60
jonr
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For the first time on LinuxQuestions, I feel unwelcome.

If stating the truth as one sees it is not acceptable, I guess it's not a very good place for somebody that likes to be honest.
 
  


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