I've also noticed sound system problems. The sound system on two of my older laptops won't work with any distribution that I've tried except Red Hat 9. (1998 vintage equipment.)

I've also noticed recent problems with KDE. I have both Gnome and KDE on my Fedora and RH systems. My FC3 systems are kept up to date all of the time. I normally use Gnome as my desktop, but I sometimes switch over to KDE briefly. KDE is very slick and appealing. However, I just find Gnome more comfortable. Gnome is more like an old friend.

Recently, when I switched over to KDE, it started freezing up and showing all kinds of errors as it was starting up. It then froze up , and I had to reset to get out of it. I switched back to Gnome immediately, and haven't tried KDE since. I think that the bug is in the newer updates.

Laptops can be a bit of a pain, because quite often things aren't standard, and even if it uses a standard chipset, it may not have it done the way most are normally. Case in point I have a Thinkpad 380XD which has a soundchip thats been supported under linux for years now, however for the thinkpads in this line, they have something wierd about them where they can't be probed and are located at a different IO than normal. I figured out the IO location, and have things working now, but default under any distro I've tried, won't go.

As far as your KDE problems, I dont know what to say. I use KDE on my main machine, and have really few problems.

If you are a newbie, use Mandrake, Red Hat, Suse or Debian (Sarge = testing).

Mandrake, Red Hat and Suse have easy installation dialogs.
Debian Sarge (testing) has a somewhat less visually appealing, but it is easy to install.
Debian unstable (Sid) has a potential of getting broken, so I don' t recommend it for newbies.
Live CDs are also good to try and even install, although they are usually based on
Debian testing or unstable. (Knoppix, Gnoppix, Mepis)
At this point, I can't personally recommend Ubuntu - I have
tried to install it 3 times on 3 different systems, and X has not worked right on any of them.
A lot of people have good things to say about it though.

Debian Woody (stable) is not nice to install - it probably won't detect your hardwear.
It is about 3 years old or more.

These distros are also appealing for more advanced users, with all the power of Linux.
I like them, since you don't have to waste a lot of time configuring your hardwear -
they just work. I installed Mandrake 10.1recently in a new setup I made, and all the hardwear
works, even the 3D acceleration. Plug in all the hardwear you want to use while making the
installation - that helps. (USB external drives, especially)

If you are a newbie, forget "Linux from Scratch" or Gentoo.

Also, when buying accessories and hardwear, Google the brands before hand
to see if they are supported in Linux. Usually you can find an equivalent for anything
that works in Linux. Some hardwear companies treat the open source community badly,
like ADSTech for example. (don't buy their stuff)

Ekkume

I have been Microsoft free at home since 2003, so its doable.

And another one about the quality of Windows (XP SP2),
and its "friendly & effective wizards". I have this standard
Intel Mobo desktop here at work (PIV - 2.0GHz) with on-board
sound. Sound works fine in Knoppix - XP tells me that the
device has a problem.

You click the troubleshoot button, it suggests that you
un-install and re-install the driver. You do that, the problem
persists, you select "No, problem not solved, start over" and
it generously guides you through un-installing and re-installing
the driver yet another time. And another ... and another, never
tiring. True, it's patient with you, and friendly, but it sure as
heck makes me grumpy. :)


Cheers,
Tink


P.S.: I just couldn't let this thread die like that :D
I've been attached to it for too long ;)

I hate windows networking as much as eveyone else but, this samba crap has got to go.

Allforcarrie, you know you dont have to install or use Samba if you dont want to.

Yikes, I just installed Samba on 2 of my PCs this weekend. I figured it would be handy since I have
dynamically assigned IPs. There are instructions on how to configure it in the Internet.

Ekkume

Ifter some tinkering i got it up and running on gneome but still not on KDE.

Linux is fine the way it is, my 2 favorite distributions are gentoo and debian, mainly because of their incredible package managers, and they're fast as well.

And the easier it gets, the slower it gets.
Some people use these, but look at, Mandrake, Fedora, SuSE, Linspire, and these other user-friendly distributions.

They require too much, if you run a debian,ubuntu, mepis, vida, or gentoo installation you will notice the speed increase from the "bloated" easy distros.

that's why I love Slackware

I'm a newbie, and I have to agree with Paul, who started the thread, and bananaman, the computer professional. (I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm probably just adding a voice to what's been said already.)

--Linux (I have Fedora Core 3, preinstalled on a laptop) is usable for a new bie if you're willing to tinker. But that's exactly the point: lots of people do NOT want to tinker. At all. Not one bit. They want to click something and have everything work and get on with whatever they were really planning to do, ie not tinker with the computer. Yes, this involves not using your brain. That's the point. They don't want to use their brain for this. They're using it for other things. Those people are 98% of the population, they're currently in the thrall of M$soft, and if some knight in shining armor would design a Mac-like or XP-like frontend, they'd desert in droves. And we're awfully close at this point. It wouldn't take much. I second Paul in saying: PLEASE, somebody, do it!

A few small things that I've found to be the biggest problems:
--the system "help" just takes you to the manuals on disk with NO SEARCH FUNCTION. This is braindead. Without a search function, a good one!, there is no way for a newbie to find information, and it's precisely newbies who need the help.

--file locations in Linux are really, really, really complex. I know they have to be. But *finding* the files does not. This is an area that really needs work. The system should just go and find the damn files being asked for. This would also make installing easier.

--An automatic install package, which combines the best features of yum, apt, synaptic, and that really works, is also an essential part of the OS for a newbie. And it would save professionals from ever having to worry about dependencies too.

then read books, or go on the internet to learn more about linux, it is really not hard for me anymore, it's like a habit, that I know off the back of my head.

-----

Not tinker? Not use your brain? That just sounds like a typical WINDOWS user, if you have that much of a problem tinkering <expecially in FC3 > and you don't want to use your brain, stick to windows, I strongly suggest finding some linux FAQ sites, and some linux starter guides, trust me, you won't regret one bit.

cheater1034: you misunderstand me. Since I'm using Linux, I'm not one of the people who minds all tinkering. I actually enjoy some of it. Even for me though, there's more than I'd like in Linux--or perhaps I should say FC3. I haven't played around with different distros that much (see previous point about not wanting to do too much tinkering...:-))

My difficulty is that every time I try to get friends, relatives, colleagues off Windows, I come up against the same problem: there is wa-a-ay too much tinkering for them in Linux. BUT, when they have a ready-to-go, click-and-use system set up for them, they love it. Linux could spread so much further if we had that friendly/braindead (choose your term) frontend that some of us have been talking about.

And if it spread, we'd all benefit. With open source alternatives being widely used, there would cease to be any point in trying to strangle everyone with proprietary systems, DRM, and the whole nine yards. There'd be device drivers for new stuff from the manufacturer at release, not a couple of years later. etc., etc. I'm sure you could come up with even more good downstream consequences of universal Linux!

I can never understand why peoples believe that to Linux to be a successful Operating System, it has to be a clone of WindowsXP, horrible ugly green/blue, interface. What's wrong with Gnome or KDE? I've found them way more customizable and superiorly eye-candy wise then any interface MS ever has done. In fact, MS had done 2 interfaces only: Horrible Win3.1 interface and Win95. WinXP has just an even uglier default Aqua Theme to their Win95's Start Button.

If peoples can't stand Gnome or KDE (I'm talking about peoples coming from Windows) they should stick with their current system. Gnome and KDE is what gives Linux it's personality. As some wise person in this once forum once said: Asking Linux to be more like Windows is like asking tea to taste more like coffee.

I'm pro, however, to more system tools to make the transition easier, like SuSE's YaST or Mandrake Control Center. In fact, I am not quite sure why those tools are not more spread among other distributions. It would help a lot. But I'm totally against touching Linux interfaces. Apple did a great job without copying anything from WinXP and look how popular it got (perhaps not as popular for being so price for 98% of the population , but many has a Mac on their wish list).

"--An automatic install package, which combines the best features of yum, apt, synaptic, and that really works, is also an essential part of the OS for a newbie. And it would save professionals from ever having to worry about dependencies too "

yum, apt, synaptic all works and are all similar, I don't understand your point. And they not only work, but are way superior as update tools then Windows Update. Updating Windows means that you update (always) security holes and Internet Explorer. It's all that you get from Windows default installation. The rest are third part programs that most peoples install illegal copies, as Nero. With apt-get, synaptic, yum, whatever, you update _all_ installed packages. You can't compete with that.

"--the system "help" just takes you to the manuals on disk with NO SEARCH FUNCTION. This is braindead. Without a search function, a good one!, there is no way for a newbie to find information, and it's precisely newbies who need the help."

Man pages. That also easily beats any help you can get from Windows. Going to MS homepage looking after help is difficult. Even to find ms messenger and directx from their messy site is way difficult and time consuming. "man whatever" and you are done.

It really is not that Linux is harder to use then Windows, things are just done differently. What's the easiest way to start an engine? Pressing a button or moving a switch up. If you've been pressing a button to start that engine for the past 10 years and it suddenly gets replaced by a switch, I bet my X you would say the button is so much easier. That's why Windows users find Windows easier. Same start button since 1995. Talking about innovation

If there's one attitude that makes me sick and one reason why Desktop Linux is facing difficulties atm, it's this. What you have to understand is that not everyone has the time to go and simply "learn" Linux. Some people use their computers exclusively for word processing and surfing the net. They don't want to work from the command line, tinkering with config files in Emacs - they want to switch on, do what they need to do, and switch off, in the shortest time possible. Linux is not the exclusive realm of the computer experts where anyone who isn't so computer literate is unworthy of Linux. Nobody has the right to label people who are computer literate as stupid, nor should you lash out at people with "go back to Windows" if they have a valid criticism of the OS or if they only want a GUI-based OS. If you use Gentoo, Slack, or even LFS, fine - I'm happy that you get to indulge in the tinkering you so like, but don't slam those who use primarily GUI-based distros like Mandrake or SuSE