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Poll: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
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Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?

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Results will be available after the polls close.

The nominees are:

I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs.
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way.
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is.

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Old 11-29-2004, 02:48 PM   #1831
ahh
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Quote:
1. Drive mounting. Usually, in linux this requires a shell, but windows does automatically. how bout a tool that checks drives every 5 seconds for new disks, then asks for a root password and mounts automatically?

2. Virtual memory. this is controlled by windows secretly, but in linux you have to make a swap partition when you install it.

3. Installation. Windows is usually simple, but linux installs have many different aspects (X-Windows, partitions, packages).

4. Hardware config. Windows driver databases are HUGE, but many aspects of a linux box can go unnoticed (know from experince: for example, i have a scroll wheel on my mouse and i have a sound card.

5. Software installation. Windows has an install shell but linux software is often installed from a shell script.
1) If you are on a network why would you want to allow random people to mount and unmount drives? If you're not there is already automounters available.

2) Please explain why a swap file is better than a swap partition.

3) Surely nobody seriously believes that installing SuSE or Mandrake for example is harder than Windows anymore?

4) This is not a Windows/Linux thing, it is about who hardware manufacturers write drivers for.

5) Only if you want to.

What is wrong with getting the error message "bad command or file name" if you entered a bad command or file name? Or "only root can do that" if you try to do something that only root can do?

Perhaps you should change your distro to SuSe or something else more newbie friendly.
 
Old 11-29-2004, 02:54 PM   #1832
XavierP
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rusty_slacker - he means that Windows = 1 disk, Office = 1 disk for the basic stuff, 1 for clip art and disks for extras (Front Page, Project, Publisher, etc etc), Acrobat is another disk and so on.

You get the same sort of programs already installed just by using your basic distro install disks
 
Old 11-29-2004, 03:09 PM   #1833
david_ross
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Just what XavierP said

Quote:
Originally posted by rusty_slacker
i say that instalshield is better than konsole to install stuff. and the konsole shells are sometimes weird
I'd say the opposite but if you want an "installsheild" then think "Red Hat Package Manager=Add Remove Programs" and "Installsheild=Red Carpet"
 
Old 11-29-2004, 03:29 PM   #1834
XavierP
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I seem to recall from an InstallShield guy last year, that there is a Linux version of installshield so you can create a program and have the same installer work on SuSE, Mandy, Fedora, Windows, etc etc - 1 cd. I don;t know how far they got with it, but I did see a working version> In fact, I think I have a cd of it around somewhere......
 
Old 11-29-2004, 03:36 PM   #1835
david_ross
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Looks like you are right:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7875
http://www.installshield.com/product...v=1&FeatID=393

You've got to love the fact that the linux screenshot is on xp though.

I wonder if that's what openoffice uses.
 
Old 11-29-2004, 03:46 PM   #1836
ParoXoN
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Re: a few quick comments on linux

1. I think drive mounting is a handy feature. The manner in which it is done could be a bit more straightforward, but I like it anyway ^.^

2. The FS system of linux doesn't really let that happen so easily (or I'd imagine.) The configuration of swap space really isn't that bad, but a simple utility to resize the swap space would be nice. (Possibly at the cost of a few ms of seek time.)

3. Again, this is a matter of explanation. The GUI installers for Drake and Fedora are very nice ^.^ Gentoo's text only install is a bit more tedious, but fairly well explained. The packages definitely need to be clarified, I think.

4. I have to admit, the auto-config on many distros I've used can fall a bit short in some aspects... The 'click and go' setup of winxp can definitely be nice sometimes.

5. A LISE installer would be very nice ^.^ configs, makes, and installs the script as per your GUI parameters. You could probably write it as a script for a text-only version.... (It probably exists but I'm just ignorant :S) I suppose it gets easier as you go, ne?


I think linux just needs to be more commonly used and better understood. There are significant differences in the way linux is structured that people don't comprehend to well. E.g. X is a program that runs over top of the shell, like win 3.1, versus xp where the GUI IS the shell; drive mounting, kernel reinstall. So many people are used to the way windows does things that it's hard to conceptualize another method of using a computer. That's the block I seem to be having at least, but I'm learning
 
Old 11-29-2004, 05:38 PM   #1837
XsuX
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Quote:
Originally posted by rusty_slacker
5) Not sure I see your point. How a distributer packages their programs is up to them and how you install them is up to you. If you want to use a package manger then use rpms and apt etc - that's all windows does.

i say that instalshield is better than konsole to install stuff. and the konsole shells are sometimes weird
RPM's, for example, don't necessarily require going to the terminal. For instance, in Fedora Core 1, all I have to do to install an RPM is just open Nautilus (my file browser) and double click the RPM file. No command-line necessary.

You also said that Linux isn't marketed well enough, but what are we supposed to do about that? Linux should be free and as long as it's free, companies won't have the extra cash to blow on ads. Or even if companies do charge, they should charge as little as possible, IMO. In fact, if I saw a Linux company running ads all the time, then I would wonder how much they're overcharging people. It seems like maybe you just don't get the Linux mentality (no offense, it shocked me at first).
 
Old 11-29-2004, 05:46 PM   #1838
Komakino
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Re: a few quick comments on linux

Quote:
Originally posted by rusty_slacker
i have a few ideas about the user-friendliness of linux. linux has a notorious rep for being hard for n00bs, while windows babies users through everything. a few things need to be changed in linux to allow it to compete with windoze.

examples:

1. Drive mounting. Usually, in linux this requires a shell, but windows does automatically. how bout a tool that checks drives every 5 seconds for new disks, then asks for a root password and mounts automatically?

2. Virtual memory. this is controlled by windows secretly, but in linux you have to make a swap partition when you install it.

3. Installation. Windows is usually simple, but linux installs have many different aspects (X-Windows, partitions, packages).

4. Hardware config. Windows driver databases are HUGE, but many aspects of a linux box can go unnoticed (know from experince: for example, i have a scroll wheel on my mouse and i have a sound card.

5. Software installation. Windows has an install shell but linux software is often installed from a shell script.

some OSs are notoriously user-unfriendly: does anyone remember "Bad command or file name"?

that has given way to "Only root can do that."

give your
1. No - it may be good for newbies but I don't want to be babied through everything. I certainly wouldn't want my drive being polled every 5 seconds for being mounted...can you IMAGINE the noise that would cause with a floppy drive as it buzzes every 5 seconds checking for a disk?!

2. Making a sway partition is hardly difficult, and again, I want to control my own partition space - I like to know what's going on, I don't WANT windows to control it for me!

3. Good! Linux is about choice! Windows is identical for everyone and is therefore not ideal for anyone - linux can be customised exactly to the user's needs.

4. That's why windows is bloated....drivers as standard for everything. If I don't own any HP stuff, why would I want all their drivers stuck on my computer by default?!

5. Install from source actually makes sense - as libraries are updated any software I compile can take care of that. Likewise I can compile optimisations for my Duron processor; a IA64 user can do likewise. With windows you're stuck with their version of libraries and the same binaries as everyone else, whether they suit your computer or not.


Linux is not hard, there's just a lot to it. With a little bit of time any one can do it. I learn things as I need to and I like it that way!
 
Old 11-29-2004, 06:28 PM   #1839
Lleb_KCir
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Re: a few quick comments on linux

Quote:
Originally posted by rusty_slacker
i have a few ideas about the user-friendliness of linux. linux has a notorious rep for being hard for n00bs, while windows babies users through everything. a few things need to be changed in linux to allow it to compete with windoze.

examples:

1. Drive mounting. Usually, in linux this requires a shell, but windows does automatically. how bout a tool that checks drives every 5 seconds for new disks, then asks for a root password and mounts automatically?


now this is the only idea i like or agree with 100%

Quote:

2. Virtual memory. this is controlled by windows secretly, but in linux you have to make a swap partition when you install it.


like that is something that is hard??? heck let the distro do a default partition install if you are a newbie and do not know what to do... not hard to figure out.

Quote:

3. Installation. Windows is usually simple, but linux installs have many different aspects (X-Windows, partitions, packages).


have you tried RedHat/Fedora line or mandrake, or SuSe installs? all 3 have very clean and easy to figure out GUI based installs. heck anyone who has installed windows can install a RH/FC distro with zero problems.

Quote:

4. Hardware config. Windows driver databases are HUGE, but many aspects of a linux box can go unnoticed (know from experince: for example, i have a scroll wheel on my mouse and i have a sound card.


hmm most hardware is supported by *nix natively or with a little work. heck not even windows XP can see all of the hardware out there. that is why when you get a new motherboard it comes with a custom CD containing drivers for the hardware for windows... why? simple windows may or maynot have drivers for it. no different with *nix.

Quote:

5. Software installation. Windows has an install shell but linux software is often installed from a shell script.

are you talking about the .exe to install most software, if so, then yes that would be nice, but that is what programs like yum and apt-get are for. both of them make it even easier to install software in *nix then in windows. yum install X, or apt-get install X and poof it will down load the program, find all dependancies and install all with 1 command. does not get much simpler then that...

Quote:

some OSs are notoriously user-unfriendly: does anyone remember "Bad command or file name"?

that has given way to "Only root can do that."

give your
even with the unfriendly distros like debian with a little bit of knowledge about *nix someone who knows about windows to a fair degree after some time getting their hands dirty can install those user unfriendly distros. i know, im a newbie still to *nix and can now not only install debian, but have succeeded in creating a media box that pushes video out to my s-vid for my TV so i can watch DVDs and movies on my TV from my debian box.

took some work, had a HUGE learning curve as i came from the RH world of distros, but with the help from here and from my LUG i have joined i was able to do it, and get good enough at it i was even able to make a rather good line by line detailed instruction for a HOWTO to duplicate what i have done.

yes *nix leaves a lot to be desired in the user friendlyness of the world, but distros like RH/FC, SuSe, and ManDrake are filling that void very well.

at least IMHO.

Last edited by Lleb_KCir; 11-29-2004 at 08:14 PM.
 
Old 11-30-2004, 12:58 AM   #1840
secesh
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look at everyone, all fired up -- even the mods! what great fun!

i guess after my first disagreement to rusty on this thread, i'll take a small defensive stance...

1) he's running slack (based on his member intro)
2) he's new to linux

this is a big change, and the reason i suggest FC to people who haven't done it before... it's like wadeing in, rather than a belly-flop.

i can understand rusty's "shellshock". but given that he's 12, i'm sure he'll cope fine, and come around... perhaps even come up with some grand idea about how to further spread the linux love lotion... seems to be his biggest concern...
 
Old 11-30-2004, 01:35 AM   #1841
jonr
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Quote:
Originally posted by rusty_slacker
i guess my comments above were kinda dumb. but still, so many options in kde behavior make customization a chore. plus the evils of finding anything in the linux filesystem after fat or ntfs is just...blah
I get the feeling you woud enjoy a more minimal interface. Why not try Fluxbox or IceWM or even the extremely minimal (but possibly buggy) window managers that are almost without number now? The difference in speed will probably surprise you, and the clean look and ease of operation (after you get used to a given window manager) may be just what you would like.

Not to knock KDE--very popular, very workable, very pretty (sometimes), but also very big, very slow compared to the above, and a huge user of resources.

 
Old 11-30-2004, 02:08 AM   #1842
Tinkster
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Re: a few quick comments on linux

Quote:
Originally posted by rusty_slacker
1. Drive mounting. Usually, in linux this requires a shell, but windows does automatically. how bout a tool that checks drives every 5 seconds for new disks, then asks for a root password and mounts automatically?
It's good the way it is, if you don't like it there's tools
like supermount that do exactly what you ask.

Quote:
2. Virtual memory. this is controlled by windows secretly, but in linux you have to make a swap partition when you install it.
And windows will secretly fragment your swap space
as it goes and you'll wonder why the bloody thing gets
slower and slower...

Quote:
3. Installation. Windows is usually simple, but linux installs have many different aspects (X-Windows, partitions, packages).
I'm not going to dignify this with an answer ...

Quote:
4. Hardware config. Windows driver databases are HUGE, but many aspects of a linux box can go unnoticed (know from experince: for example, i have a scroll wheel on my mouse and i have a sound card.
Talk to the hardware manufacturers, not the linux-users
or -developers.

Quote:
5. Software installation. Windows has an install shell but linux software is often installed from a shell script.
See 3... if you can't handle source installs get one of
the big distros that have pre-fabbed rpm, deb or whatever
packages of the things you like.

Quote:
some OSs are notoriously user-unfriendly: does anyone remember "Bad command or file name"? ;)

that has given way to "Only root can do that." :D
That has given way to "software updates have been installed,
you need to reboot" ... "there are security updates available,
do you want to download now?" ... "New virus-signatures are
available, proceed download?" ...

give your :twocents:[/QUOTE]
rusty_slacker, huh?
How about rusty_windows_user, or active_troll? :)

Your thread REALLY should be merged with that one:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...threadid=54388


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 11-30-2004, 02:19 AM   #1843
secesh
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oh man tink... i snorted my brew on 3s reply... that wasn't even close to nice!
 
Old 11-30-2004, 03:33 AM   #1844
XavierP
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Good point Tink - I'm merging it with "Make Linux easier for the general population! Please." in General because these do cover similar points.
 
Old 11-30-2004, 05:38 AM   #1845
baldy3105
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Why does everyone assume that making a Linux distribution more user friendly mean that its dumbed down? I know that the Guru's like the control they have over the OS, but just because the OS comes ready to use doesn't mean that control is taken away.

Whats wrong with having a distribution which is ready to work out of the box with little in the need for any techy knowledge, but with all the linux goodies hiding under the bonnet for those who know what they are doing.

Its like saying, well you shouldn't use a car if you don't know how to configure the engine management yourself. Huh? Whats wrong with getting a whole working system that cann be tinkered with if you have the knowledge but will operate just fine if you don't. I don't see why people see the two as mutually exclusive.

I run Suse 9.0 and its easy peasy to intall. I don't get the argument above about how complicated it is cos of X and KDE etc, most of the distro's I've tried just do the install, easy as XP. Yes there are occasional driver problems but hey was anyone around in the NT3.51 days? If not you don't know what driver problems are!

The point being, easy and ready to use as the distro is, hiding just under the surface is, in my fairly noobish judgement, a massively tweakable distro like any other. People may prefer other distros for whatever reason but is anyone seriously claiming that Suse are restricting the abillity to tweak and modify to your hearts content? I just don't see it.

I think linux is perfectly capable of being all things to all people. Easy to use and install for those who want an OS that invisibly gets on with the job, and infinitly configurable for those who like to get under the bonnet, I just dont see that theres a contradiction there.

Long live Linux, Bills days are numbered!

Pete
 
  


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