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Poll: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
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Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?

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The nominees are:

I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs.
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way.
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is.

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Old 11-22-2004, 02:43 PM   #1816
gco10996
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Just when you thought this thread was done . . .

I'll skip over most of the issues raised here (voluminous but mostly lousy documentation, dependency hell, and such), but I do have one observation related to device support:

Why does one or more parts of X fall flat on its face immediately upon completion of OS installation?

I mean, I've no real gripes over needing to configure X post install (well, sometimes), but how in the h**l does the installation GUI work perfectly, but the OS does NOT???

What's wrong with the drivers used during the installation, hmm???

This was REALLY a PITA with pre-9 Mandrake, and most recently with FC2 & 3.

The FC issue is particularly troublesome, in that the first boot (after install)config loses all contact with my input devices. (Yeah, I'm using a wireless Keyboard and USB Mouse, and I'd be more than happy to config & tweak to make things work, but I can't get there from here. . . same issue with MDK 9.2, MDK 10, & Slack 9.1)

Well, slack doesn't have a GUI installer, but the KYBD still works during install.

Again, what happened to those input device drivers that worked so well during OS install???
 
Old 11-29-2004, 06:23 AM   #1817
baldy3105
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Well each of us can only speak from their own experience, but I have to say that since having problems with Suse8.1, every other Distro I've tried , Suse9.x, Mandrake 10, Fedora Core 2, possible a couple of others, I have never had the slightest glitch in the install process. They are as smooth to install as XP is. Smoother in fact cos you haven't got to stop to type in a bloody twenty digit number that you paid extortionate amounts of money for!

Prehaps you have hardware issues?
 
Old 11-29-2004, 07:49 AM   #1818
samael26
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1
 
Old 11-29-2004, 07:57 AM   #1819
ParoXoN
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@samael: Not a productive post.

As for my take on this issue, I think Darwin is the way to go in terms of Linux user-friendliness.
 
Old 11-29-2004, 07:57 AM   #1820
samael26
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OOpss, mistake !

There are lots of things I don't understand, and among them the need to see Linux overcome Windows. Why is that ? There have always been people who didn't like to listen to mainstream pop music and prefer underground gothic-punk-rock music.
IMHO it's exactly the same for Linux and Windows. I wouldn't like to see everybody wearing the same clothes or driving the same cars. Would you ?
I'm not a geek, but I like to think that there are people who just sit hours behind their screens and figure out the next computer revolution, alyhough I wouldn't do that myself.
You know what, it makes me feel the same as thinking that there are monks who pray for everybody at this exact moment..
Sort of gives you faith in the whole human curiosity and dedication...
 
Old 11-29-2004, 08:42 AM   #1821
gco10996
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Quote:
Originally posted by thegnu
[Sure, this is a tall order, but it can be done. Linux already has the best package managing system IMHO in pacman. The GUI needs to boot by default in VGA mode if it can't find a driver. Hardware detection isn't hard, just takes work to create a database of vendor IDs and product IDs. Making an easy install is simple.

It's attainable, just people with the know-how would have to actually dedicate themselves to it. [/B]
baldy3105,

Who doesn't have hardware issues running Linux?

But anyway, the quote above is kind of relevant to the point I was trying to make in my last post. I've no issue with OS installs (hell, even slackware's getting less bumpy). I just sit and wonder how & why, after the OS installation goes as smoothly and flawlessly as anything I've installed, that devices (which WORKED during the install) do NOT work once you boot your newly installed OS.
What was so wrong with the device drivers the installation app was using, and successfully, just minutes ago? It's not important at that point what your X settings are, or whether you have a 2, 3, or 16 button mouse, or an 84 key, 102 key, or an UltraMegaSurfMaster 2000 keyboard, you just want the system to boot, and accept your input.
Sure, you can drop to Run Level 3 if X isn't all there yet and tweak to your heart's content (which is the norm for most distros except RH 8 + or Mandrake 9 +), but you're kind of stuck when your input devices don't work, either.

And that's my major irritant du jour.
 
Old 11-29-2004, 09:36 AM   #1822
finegan
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in your philosophy.

At least for most of us, the argument to use Linux isn't a matter of taste. Comparing art forms like music to tastes in Operating systems becomes a murky metaphor to say the least, but the underlying issue is one of standards, and I'll attempt to run with it although I might trip and fall. We've all been given a balcony seat on a dramatic change of scene in human history. The internet isn't just a better delivery system for gossip and pornography, although it does do that too, and well I might add, but the other day I was wondering what the Congressional districts in the state of Georgia were and who was the rep from the 6th District. This took about 15 seconds to find out. Now let's rewind a decade to when I was finishing High School and say I wanted to find the same thing out? Hours maybe? Including the time it took me to trundle down to the local library. We're talking about an invention that rivals the aquaducts, reinforced concrete, pasteurization... and just like all of those its built on standards. The guts of the internet, from the bottom up... IEEE for ethernet, serial, firewire, IEE, ISO, ANSI standards are even in there, and at the very end of the chain, at least in 95% of american households that have a computer, is a black hole running Windows.

To make good on my promise of continuing with the music metaphor, it doesn't take a musical savant to pick out the notes in a Bauhaus, Social Distortion, or Rolling Stones tune and be able to reproduce it. In that reproduction there may be some legal wrangles depending on whether they record it or how loud its being played or how many people are listening, and all of this legality is under debate, and that's a good thing. I'm not one of those intellectual property purists that thinks there shouldn't be any, but there has to be a reasonable allowance for reverse engineering. Let's take the muscian again, and his geek analogue, the programmer. Show a programmer, some uber-badass, the Bach of Code, a Windows box... and give him all the tools available, a decompiler, a debugger, and unless he's signed an NDA with Microsoft, absolutely guaranteeing that all of his life's work they have first pass on, and he knows ahead of time how the OS was put together, he won't be able to tell you much of anything... In the first case because its near impossible, and in the later because he legally can't say.

Far cry from the Roman aqueducts, eh Horatio?

Back to standards. Linux is built on a few, the POSIX compliance standards, which are published by the IEEE, and I think now all but freely available, and those that aren't if there are any... well you just have to pay for them, and not like out the nose, the last I checked all 1000+ pages of IEEE1394 was about $100. Then there's the LSB, about half a dozen file system standards and about 10 or so GUI toolkits, all of which you've got access to pretty much every piece of documentation for.

So where are Window's standards? Well... it runs on an x86 PC, and how everything works from the DDR memory to the instruction set, to the PCI bus is something you can look up (albeit not necessarily reproduce [en masse, reverse engineering is still somewhat legal]... but patents are only 21 years from date of application, not to be less then 17 years from date of issue [ In the US anyway, but the Paris Convention about a century ago is keeping us all in line for the time being ]). Well, then the hard drive reads track 0 sector 0, and you're screwed... until you get to the Windows API, and that's just so that someone else can write software to run on the thing. Everything between when NTLDR hits and your blindingly blue desktop appears is a mystery, and a mystery that is precariously sitting between you and the damn moon shot of our generation, the only overwhelming, jaw dropping scientific innovation we've gotten to witness first hand, and 95% of my fellow countrymen* that can see it+ are stuck looking through an obfuscated lens that was put there by a company that spends insane marketing budgets trying to make a grab at your digital wallet and crafts that lens exactly towards that end.

So its not really a matter of taste, although that's the tack that Apple seems to be on and I might have just stumbled accross in my ranting why I hold them in so much disdain despite producing, in my crap opinion, an acceptably open operating system and a far superior hardware.

I meant to just try and tap out a short cohesive argument over morning coffee before work, but it looks like I'm skipping the shower just to make it in 10 minutes late... and this is still a mess. Make fun of me at your will, I deserve it, especially in my hubris to think that after 122 pages of this discussion that someone will give more then skim time to a multi-paragraph bloated and wandering post.

Cheers,

Finegan

* countrymen, sexist language I know, but countrypeople sounds stupid and I've been watching a lot of the West Wing lately... oh the dream of a Liberal Administration! Sometimes you just have to run with it... my apologies. Also, I don't know the stats on other countries, and my 95% is taking CNN and such at their word.

+Dunno the % of US households that have internet access, but its not enough, and although I should spend more time helping fix that, the best I can muster for the time being is to give away the machines that my closet occasionally burps up like a cat with 500Mhz hairballs.
 
Old 11-29-2004, 12:28 PM   #1823
samael26
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You know what, Finegan, I do believe you've got a surprisingly good style as far as writing is considered, and I particularly enjoyed your reply, even though I'm too thick to understand half of what you've (tried) to express.
Even though everything, and especially serious comparison betweens OSs shouldn't be equated to a mere matter of "tastes", either musical or other, I simply wanted to point out that IMH-non geek opinion, it really comes down to that, sorry.
I'm definitely Latin in my perception of things, perhaps...hence the roman aqueducts, I suppose...
I'm simply glad Linux exists, that's what I meant.
 
Old 11-29-2004, 02:08 PM   #1824
rusty_slacker
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will this thread ever die?
 
Old 11-29-2004, 02:18 PM   #1825
rusty_slacker
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a few quick comments on linux

i have a few ideas about the user-friendliness of linux. linux has a notorious rep for being hard for n00bs, while windows babies users through everything. a few things need to be changed in linux to allow it to compete with windoze.

examples:

1. Drive mounting. Usually, in linux this requires a shell, but windows does automatically. how bout a tool that checks drives every 5 seconds for new disks, then asks for a root password and mounts automatically?

2. Virtual memory. this is controlled by windows secretly, but in linux you have to make a swap partition when you install it.

3. Installation. Windows is usually simple, but linux installs have many different aspects (X-Windows, partitions, packages).

4. Hardware config. Windows driver databases are HUGE, but many aspects of a linux box can go unnoticed (know from experince: for example, i have a scroll wheel on my mouse and i have a sound card.

5. Software installation. Windows has an install shell but linux software is often installed from a shell script.

some OSs are notoriously user-unfriendly: does anyone remember "Bad command or file name"?

that has given way to "Only root can do that."

give your
 
Old 11-29-2004, 02:24 PM   #1826
secesh
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i disagree...
linux has made monstrous gains towards becomming 'user-friendly' -- the result i'm seeing is that different linux re-packagers find independent solutions, and therefore make linux as a whole harder to troubleshoot. so many of your problems fit under this category of 'individulization'...

hardware support -- some manufacturers are starting to take linux seriously, but this should not ultimatly be the community's problem...

mounting: there already is an auto-mount feature... a 5-sec cron job would only sh*t the system resources...
 
Old 11-29-2004, 02:29 PM   #1827
rusty_slacker
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still, there are other examples. look at the control center for kde! after being used to the plain widgets and window decorations of win, the complexity is a shellshock. another big problem is downloading linux. many people still don't have high-speed internet, and there is little public marketing to get it noticed. the fact that many distros are several cds is practically screaming not to be downloaded.
 
Old 11-29-2004, 02:32 PM   #1828
rusty_slacker
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i guess my comments above were kinda dumb. but still, so many options in kde behavior make customization a chore. plus the evils of finding anything in the linux filesystem after fat or ntfs is just...blah
 
Old 11-29-2004, 02:34 PM   #1829
david_ross
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1) no it doesn't. Any user can mount or unmount a drive with the correct privilages. There is also no need to use the shell if you have a window manager like kde.
2) It is handled automatically with most distros if you use automatic partitioning. Having the swap file located on a seperate partition also allows the data to be kept together and not spread across the disks in chunks and requests do not need to go through a file system driver. If you like you can use a file to do this.
3) It depends on the distro. When you install a windows system you usually need about 20 cds to install the same number of applications. Most distributions lef you select a package set for a specific use such as a desktop and the most common components will be installed for you.
4) They are huge and sparse. Linux drivers are very nicely collated in the kernel with only a fex exceptions such as printer drivers.
5) Not sure I see your point. How a distributer packages their programs is up to them and how you install them is up to you. If you want to use a package manger then use rpms and apt etc - that's all windows does.
 
Old 11-29-2004, 02:38 PM   #1830
rusty_slacker
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quote: 3) It depends on the distro. When you install a windows system you usually need about 20 cds to install the same number of applications. Most distributions lef you select a package set for a specific use such as a desktop and the most common components will be installed for you.

wtf does these mean?

5) Not sure I see your point. How a distributer packages their programs is up to them and how you install them is up to you. If you want to use a package manger then use rpms and apt etc - that's all windows does.

i say that instalshield is better than konsole to install stuff. and the konsole shells are sometimes weird
 
  


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