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Old 04-21-2009, 04:05 AM   #1
1kyle
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Is Windows 7 the first major setback for Linux's expansion into the workplace


Hi all

Might seem a strange question to ask on a 'Nix Forum but judging by the favorable reviews I've seen and read about Windows 7 I decided to try it for myself.

So I downloaded a recent test build (X-64 build 7077) from "The Bay" and tried it.

I have to admit that even I was suitably impressed - it installed in around 15 - 20 mins minus HUGE amounts of BLOAT that VISTA was famous for and seemed to run quite nicely and slick. . It's Free, doesn't expire until Mar 2010 and you can load it on to as many machines as you like. The official RC will be available soon if you don't like torrents and will last until June 2010 if you want to try.

Of course there are restrictions like the GUI is pretty "Windows" standard and customisation is a bit of a pain if you are used to the 'nix way.

I even got W7 to run on some old hardware which VISTA would have simply laughed at.

Networking was still a bit "iffy" -- SAMBA still wins hands down here -- but as far as I can see Mr Gates and Co. have done a reasonable job on this making it IMO much harder to bring Linux to the masses.

Of course until Windows 7 finally hits retail we won't know what it will cost but if it isn't too expensive this could be Linux'es biggest danger yet to further expansion.

On the server front where 'Nix is still a major player Windows 2008 server (based on W7 or the other way around - I don't know) this is looking pretty good as well so even the mighty Red Hat will have a fight on its hands.

Could be an interesting 12 months in the 'Nix area.

( I can't believe I'm saying positive things about 'Doze)

Cheers
-K

Last edited by 1kyle; 04-21-2009 at 04:13 AM.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 05:05 AM   #2
H_TeXMeX_H
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Well, good for you, switch to Window$ 7 ASAP.

EDIT: you should ask the moderators to move this to non-nix forums general, I don't think it has anything to do with *nix.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 04-21-2009 at 05:07 AM.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 05:20 AM   #3
GazL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1kyle View Post
( I can't believe I'm saying positive things about 'Doze)
I suspect you won't be the only one with those sentiments, but then, eventually, even Microsoft has to produce a half decent product.

Actually, I think Win7 will be a much bigger impact on OSX. Apple's entire marketing scheme is based on ridiculing Windows. Once Windows shares the same level of polish as OSX, then Apple are left without a marketing message. What are they going to say then "Buy our stylish, but overpriced hardware because... er... Steve says so!". My box sits beneath my desk, I don't care how stylish it is, or whether the front fascia is aluminium or plastic. All I care about is price/performance, reliability and that it does what I need it to.

I've been a Linux advocate for many years now, but even I'm optimistic about Windows 7. I'm sure they won't get everything right. This is Microsoft were talking about, but there's a good chance they may get it right enough this time.

Time will tell.

Last edited by GazL; 04-21-2009 at 05:21 AM.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 05:25 AM   #4
H_TeXMeX_H
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I would also look up the draconian DRM included with the wonderful Window$ 7. No, actually, don't bother, just use it and praise it here on the Linux forums.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 07:04 AM   #5
pixellany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
EDIT: you should ask the moderators to move this to non-nix forums general, I don't think it has anything to do with *nix.
Done.....
 
Old 04-21-2009, 07:07 AM   #6
b0uncer
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I thought the DRM thing was a joke..but either way, there has been talk about "applocker" and whatnot, which doesn't sound too promising to me: "administrators can prevent unwanted software from being run in a corporate network". But how about a 3rd party preventing regular people from running what they want? Maybe a piece of malicious software that disables running your everyday software on the machine? Almost every thing they advertise sounds like it's got at least two sides..

Personally, having tested out Windows 7 since the "build 7000", I don't see what the hype is all about. It's the same thing as before, packaged in a slightly candier way than before, that's about it; of course there are some modifications, but then again there has to be if they are going to call it a new version---yet I've found nothing in there that would make it as good as a lot of the "reviews" say. Not everybody is buyable, but I'd be surprised if MS hadn't put any money in getting some positive reviews of this..not least because if the new version got the same welcome that Vista did, they'd be even deeper in the pit.

Macs are expensive, everybody say, but PC machines cost equally much if you start buying good hardware and commercial software for every need (and still it doesn't come in a tight package as Macs do, which matters for some). And if it's just the operating system, then OS X is cheaper than Windows (at least in the stores here). So if Windows wanted to clean the desk and become the "best" or even mostly only choice for a desktop operating system, not to mention the laptop, netbook and portable devices, it's price would need to come down by a lot, it would need to become far more customizable and yet lighter than it is now (including Windows 7) and in addition get rid of most of the malicious software that bugs it. There's always something out there, but if you can't use the operating system without paying 50-100$ a year for a software that tries to keep the malware out (and eats up the resources you paid for at the computer store), I don't think it's an option.

After this rant, which you probably shouldn't take too seriously, you can safely count me as not agreeing to the "goodness" of Windows7, neither alone nor compared to Vista. Why did they ever stop marketing Windows Operating Environment with the "Paint for free" sticker on the box (that being the best I can think of that they've achieved)?
 
Old 04-21-2009, 07:13 AM   #7
GazL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
I would also look up the draconian DRM included with the wonderful Window$ 7. No, actually, don't bother, just use it and praise it here on the Linux forums.
I guess you're talking about the HDCP restrictions on high def video output here? Yes, I'm aware of this and it's unfortunate. I'd rather microsoft hadn't gone down that road, but as I intend to tackle the problem at source by never owning any DRM restricted media, it's less of an issue. This is why I don't own an ipod, have never bought a song from iTunes and all my cd's have been ripped to .flac and .ogg.

The simple fact is that audio on Linux is a mess. All the applications use a different volume slider on the mixer (some use MASTER, some use PCM, some do it in software). The ALSA sound level my systems produce require me to put my external amplifer up to maximum just to get a half decent volume level regardless of how high I set the sliders in alsamixer when playing music. On Windows I can get much higher volume level and that's even before hitting any distortion due to the hardware limits of the internal amplifiers/dac. I've noticed this issue ever since ALSA was introduced and have been considering trying OSSv4 as an alternative to see if that helps any. I had no issues with sound volume/quality under OSS/Free back in the old days so this appears to be something specific to ALSA.

I like Linux, alot, but I'm not blind to its faults, nor am I blind to the progress Windows appears to be making. I still think the OP is right to think that if Win 7 lives up to its hype then there's a significant threat to Linux Desktop uptake here. As I said above, time will tell.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 07:15 AM   #8
Hangdog42
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Lets see. Vista failed because it didn't do anything better than XP and required an Imperial Mega Ton of new hardware not to do it. Now Windows 7 won't do anything better than XP, only you can not do it on the hardware you already have. Maybe. Oh, and you get a bunch of new DRM to make damn sure you can't do anything more than XP.


Yeah, that is a value proposition I can really get into.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 07:28 AM   #9
moxieman99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
I would also look up the draconian DRM included with the wonderful Window$ 7. No, actually, don't bother, just use it and praise it here on the Linux forums.
DRM problems will only be resolved when the underlying legal issues and principles are resolved and modified. Intellectual property laws are in flux due to the internet, and societies are searching for a new equilibrium. Windows is putting forward one "solution" to those issues, and others will put out other "solutions." All I can say is that it behooves everyone to be politically active, and make sure that you let lawmakers know of cogent arguments in favor of whichever solution you favor (screeds and polemics being counter-productive).

On the bright side, Windows is becoming more like linux and other Unix derivatives (Apple) in its behavior. Question is whether linux users are going to dither while being co-opted by the enemy, or work to improve linux and -- more importantly -- spread the word/market linux as a viable operating system that should be considered by Joe Sixpack. Given the recession, the reasonable amounts that one can donate for software, and the availability of distrobutions that work with "older" hardware, now is a good time for linux users to help get linux into the average home.

Denigrating Windows is not going to accomplish that goal. Most homeowners do not care about DRM. Maybe they should, but they don't. Gates stepped on his crank with Vista, especially with its hardware requirements. Windows 7, from what I have heard, reworked Vista substantially. Getting linux into the mainstream requires more than esoteric arguments best presented to lawmakers and opinion shapers. Now is the time to see if linux can be put into the average Joe's consciousness. That takes working with people who are not, and never will be, interested in computers as more than background appliances.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 08:36 AM   #10
1kyle
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Hi all

I merely said I wanted to TRY W7 - not that I was switching to it. There wasn't any point in asking about it on a Windows 7 Forum -- you might just as well ask on a Ferrari Forum what owners think of their Ferraris.

No I wanted to see particularly from a group that as a whole that basically for one reason or another (not all valid BTW) doesn't like Windows what they thought of W7 (if they'd tried it).

Whether we like it or not there are a lot of people out there who need a lot of convincing to ditch Windows.

Netbooks (you know those tiny sub laptop PC's) looked as if this would be a great area to bring Linux into the mainstream -- however with M$ extending the life of XP and pushing forward with W7 this is not so straight forward any more - as W7 runs quite fine on these with 1GB RAM installed and a Celeron Atom processor with SSD's (no "classical Hard disks")and can be installed from a USB device.

I was really seeking opionions from those who've actually TRIED W7.
Fine if they don't like it but why are there always people who just don't READ the post and merely add their usually fatuous opininon which goes something like this

If you like it go and use it - or other usually virulent stuff about M$ and other large corporations in general.

I'm no particular lover of Microsoft in particular but maybe people who are always ranting againt it should remember that the Bill Gates foundation has possibly poured MORE money into charity and humanitarian relief than possibly ALL the governments on Earth added together.

Incidentally DRM is no worse on Windows than on any other application -- things like Winamp etc can rip your CD's etc to any DRM free codec you like (I use FLAC) and as for getting things like the new DVB-T digital TV cards to work properly on ANY version of Linux is a real pain.

DRM is only a pain if you use things like Itunes -- the same restrictions will apply on whatever hardware / software combination you run the stuff on.

Incidentally a Windows program UltraISO can make a 100% total clone of even a "Copy protected" Multi - layer DVD - which you can then mount as a virtual ISO to play it.

I copy a load of these ISO's to a WD passport 320GB portable hard drive and play the relevant DVD's on a laptop when I'm travelling.

DVD playing is also a little bit of a "bummer" on 'Nix -- I tried VLC on W7 and it worked 100% without me having to hunt all over the place for "LIBDVDCSS" / other decryption software.

As for Digitial Terrestial and Satellite TV the Windows Media Center built into W7 (not to be confused with the Windows Media Player which IS an abomination) works with most cards straight away even before the Manufacturers have updated their own software.

Whilst I love Linux - Audio and Video playing and especially Streaming is still a real pain to get working properly -- all this stuff works FIRST time with W7 as far as I can see.

I'm still having trouble playing Blu Ray discs or watching High Definition TV on Linux -- these are areas that for the mainstream will need to be RADICALLY improved before the masses will ever put 'Nix on their workstation. Just look for example of the mess / hoops you have to go through to get something like Myth TV to work. Imagine the typical joe out there having to do it.

Don't get me wrong -- For servers etc no prob but until the whole Multimedia experience can be highly simplified and improved 'Nix won't be taken up by the masses - and the inclusion of the Windows Media Center into the base code of W7 shows that Multi-media should be INTEGRAL to the part of a modern OS not an added on extra.

Cheers

-K

Last edited by 1kyle; 04-21-2009 at 08:52 AM.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 08:59 AM   #11
Crito
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Moral of story: If you lie, cheat and steal just remember to donate a dollar to Jerry's Kids and you'll still be a good person. Worked for Bill Gates and Bill Clinton anyways.

I use Windows because people pay me to use it. That's the only reason.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 09:14 AM   #12
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moxieman99 View Post
DRM problems will only be resolved when the underlying legal issues and principles are resolved and modified.
Yeah, you're probably right. I still will not support DRM, even tho I probably already am and I don't know it. It's not only for my own good, but the good of all that DRM dies.

For the DRM I was referring to:
http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?...59257&from=rss
as well as the other more obvious DRM of restricting video and audio, etc.

As for the reason libdvdcss is not included by default, is because it is illegal in a number of countries.

P.S. From the OP I was getting the impression that this was simply promoting Window$ 7 here on a Linux forum, for obvious reasons. I thoroughly despise such articles / stories so I was compelled to post back with counterpoints. Death to the evil empire !

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 04-21-2009 at 09:18 AM.
 
Old 04-21-2009, 09:41 AM   #13
1kyle
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Hi there
I've been a member of this Forum for a long time so NO way was I trying to promote W7.

I was just saying that from my own observations W7 seems to be (for once from M$) a half way decent product that doesn't require oodles of Hardware and seems to give a pretty OK multi-media experience. (Note I refer to Windows Media Center not the absolutely horrendous Windows Media player).

If VLC for example (free open source) installs just fine with the decryption Libraries on W7 shouldn't 'NIX have it as well - Open source presumeably means Open Source.

Incidentally once you've installed VLC on W7 the Windows Media Center will also play "Encrypted" DVD's so presumably the library is common. --This *Might* change when the official Retail W7 product is released.

I emphasize Multi-media because this is one area nearly every HOME user WANTS on their desktop / Laptop and STILL seems to be a DOG on any Linux distro I've ever tried to get working properly.

Another area where 'NIC could (and should) be making inroads is in communications (given the still VAST superiority that LINUX has in all things networking -- W7 is very "Iffy" here BTW but it's still in "Beta" remember).

But getting "Mobile Broadband" to work properly can also be a matter of Luck. - Not always Linux's fault since the built in software" of these USB Modems (HUWEI type I think)only has a Windows version - so someone needs to write drivers to address the actual hardware.

These are things that seriously DO matter if we ever want 'NIX to make it away from the Server room into mainstream.

I'm used to getting stuff to work on Linux -- but it does take a while and usually you get a much better running system working and looking the way YOU want it to -- but I can see the attraction of installing an OS in around 15 Mins, switching on the computer and everything is working first time.

VISTA was a total joke as is agreed by most even the most M$ diehard admitted "Mistakes were made", and XP is so old now that if you've got any old install disks they'd probably be worth something to sell as antiques but I'd be a little bit careful in writing W7 off.

As I said I think this is likely to be a SERIOUS challenge to 'NIX (depending on the final price point of course).

Cheers
-K
 
Old 04-21-2009, 01:41 PM   #14
farouqp
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remember w!ndow$ 98 and .... wait for it w!ndow$ 98 second edtion. looks to me they doing the same thing with vi$ta and wotumacallit 7. i have been a techie and saw what that OS does for space and performance (yes vista) and doubt they working forward @ m$oft. anyway, whats good for the goose.....
 
Old 04-21-2009, 02:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farouqp View Post
remember w!ndow$ 98 and .... wait for it w!ndow$ 98 second edtion. looks to me they doing the same thing with vi$ta and wotumacallit 7. i have been a techie and saw what that OS does for space and performance (yes vista) and doubt they working forward @ m$oft. anyway, whats good for the goose.....
What I what I want to know is what Vista/Windows 7 does with all the hard drive space it "acquires", 12-14gigs? seriously? Is there some hot sexy porn stash somewhere bundled with these OS that I missed?
 
  


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