LinuxQuestions.org
Go Job Hunting at the LQ Job Marketplace
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices

Reply
 
Search this Thread
Old 08-31-2014, 03:52 PM   #16
metaschima
Senior Member
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 1,174

Rep: Reputation: Disabled

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
This last feature is perhaps it's most wide-reaching and profound. There are distinct advantages to such tight control but it does come at a cost, largely because of moving away from simple text files, even in logs, to binary APIs. This is over-simplification but to make it easier for most to wrap their heads around this, it is something a bit like the Windows Registry, where it cannot be read directly and must be accessed through an app (such as Regedit) which does not lend itself easily to such time savers and user friendly tools like "grep" and "sed". If you've ever edited The Registry, you know there is a search function, but AFAIK, it will not pipe in the manner that grep and sed can be employed together for fast, deep work.

So, if you are a casual user or one that cares little for "what's under the hood" you will probably like systemd, at least a little, because in my experience using such systems, the changes you can feel are quite minimal, either positively or negatively, as long as you're only concerned with "driving". It is only when something breaks that you will find yourself ever more dependent on "mechanics". You can all extrapolate what that ultimately means for this "Linux business", users, good and bad.

On the other, more traditional side, there is BSD, Gentoo, and Slackware and such projects as "eudev" working to create a viable option to stay text-based and "Unix-like". Since there are far more "drivers" than "mechanics" and the shift grows more everyday, I suspect these will continue to be polarized and possibly marginalized, because systemd, or some offshoot of it, is poised to win a very large share, whether you like it or not. It doesn't play well with others. To borrow a phrase, "You're either on the bus or you're off the bus".
Sounds like they are trying to Window-ize Linux again. Note that many viruses on Windoze can hide themselves on Windoze because they can manipulate the registry.

The movement towards obscure binary blobs is also off-putting. So, I will not be using it. If I have to switch to something it will be to something that sticks to the principles of openness and readability rather than obfuscation and obscurity.
 
Old 08-31-2014, 10:35 PM   #17
maples
Member
 
Registered: Oct 2013
Location: IN, USA
Distribution: Arch, Debian Wheezy
Posts: 382

Rep: Reputation: 100Reputation: 100
One thing that I don't understand: Why do we need binary logs? What's preventing systemd from using plain text logs?
 
Old 09-01-2014, 06:48 AM   #18
sundialsvcs
Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 5,377

Rep: Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108
Personally, I don't have any trouble with the idea that some Unix/Linux systems might legitimately need more services to be carried-out by "the number-one process at the top of the food chain," than were originally called-for on a PDP computer in the 1970's. There might well be a need for a daemon in that role that does more than init was conceived to do. And, that's why we call it "choice."
 
Old 09-01-2014, 11:22 AM   #19
brianL
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Oldham, Lancs, England
Distribution: Slackware & Slackware64 14.1
Posts: 7,029
Blog Entries: 52

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Anybody seen this from the self-styled "systemd cabal":

http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-...x-systems.html

It might be Linux, Jim, but not as we know it.

Last edited by brianL; 09-02-2014 at 06:17 AM.
 
Old 09-01-2014, 11:54 AM   #20
sundialsvcs
Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 5,377

Rep: Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108
While I didn't (and probably won't ever) "dumpster-dive" into the particulars of that proposal, I did find myself nodding my head in agreement at most of the premises that were introduced. "Linux is not at all appropriate for my grandmother," who by the way has an iPad. So, this is something that I think it's good to be talking about, whether or not this particular answer is "the."
 
Old 09-01-2014, 05:57 PM   #21
enorbet
Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware 14 is Main OpSys on Main PC, 2ndary are OpenSuSe 13 and SolydK
Posts: 692

Rep: Reputation: 289Reputation: 289Reputation: 289
Since my previous post on this subject was an attempt at pure information with as little bias as I could muster, I hope you don't mind if I now state my position. I see systemd literally as "business as usual". Most businessmen have some deep seated need to "lock things up" so they feel they are in control and can make market predictions. They don't like chaos, even just a modicum of it. However chaos is the bread and butter of art, creativity and imagination.

Much the same as the growth of creativity and subsequent demand during the late 60's and 70's in Music fueled a huge increase in money spent on Music, which drew in vultures by the droves to capitalize on this growing market.... who then promptly locked it down and squeezed almost all the life right out of it, I think this is what is happening to Linux. It is a pretty safe bet that IBM didn't invest $1,000,000,000.00 in Linux without expecting some return, and systemd is just the beginning of how they, and others, will lock it down. I will not be a slave or a cash cow.

Killing the goose that laid the golden egg is a cliche because it is so commonly done.
 
Old 09-01-2014, 10:11 PM   #22
sundialsvcs
Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 5,377

Rep: Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108Reputation: 1108
Noted. I don't actually have a further opinion on this matter.
 
Old 09-04-2014, 04:07 PM   #23
xyzone
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 10

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
I think whatever components that will be handled by systemd will have the option to use something else, at least until systemd evolves. I'm not too concerned, and I think the alarmists are silly. I think things will work themselves out in the long run.
 
Old 09-04-2014, 08:23 PM   #24
capt ron
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Albuquerque New Mexico
Distribution: LinuxMint 17
Posts: 10

Rep: Reputation: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzone View Post
I think whatever components that will be handled by systemd will have the option to use something else, at least until systemd evolves. I'm not too concerned, and I think the alarmists are silly. I think things will work themselves out in the long run.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

--Martin Niemoller
 
Old 09-05-2014, 10:15 AM   #25
enorbet
Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware 14 is Main OpSys on Main PC, 2ndary are OpenSuSe 13 and SolydK
Posts: 692

Rep: Reputation: 289Reputation: 289Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzone View Post
I think whatever components that will be handled by systemd will have the option to use something else, at least until systemd evolves. I'm not too concerned, and I think the alarmists are silly. I think things will work themselves out in the long run.
I am sorry to have to burst your bubble but not only have the progenitors of systemd already proclaimed that they are unconcerned about non-compliance (you're either on the bus or you're off the bus) but it is already an accomplished fact. There are several elements that must be utterly changed to something new (example = udev) thanks to systemd, or they will no longer work without systemd. This is why Linus Torvalds on April 3rd of this year banned Kay Sievers as he was lobbying for fundamental changes in the Linux kernel that would further this end.... that and the fact that he refused to clean up messes his patches caused expecting others to clean up after him.

Of course "things will work out" but not by themselves. It takes people to do that and they have to at least be aware a problem exists. While there do exist some "alarmists" who are over-the-top, there are also serious detractors who simply don't like the idea of Linux becoming a more closed system, especially if it emulates Windows and Mac methods.

Perhaps the biggest benefit to Linux is there, that once closed up, Mac and Windows can "borrow" a lot less on that one-way street. I submit that, nor anything else systemd has to offer (which I already outlined) is not worth the changes that not only gives the "back seat" to human text files, but relegates them to the trunk or kicks them out the door altogether.

This is a big problem and not at all "tilting at windmills" since the majority of distros have adopted systemd and fired people who disagree. Systemd does create problems for the more Unix-like distros AND the base kernel as mentioned above. If you doubt this, note that Gentoo began the Eudev Project in 2012, and the landscape is profoundly different (and worse) in 2014.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTI1NTE
 
Old 09-06-2014, 10:54 AM   #26
TobiSGD
Moderator
 
Registered: Dec 2009
Location: Hanover, Germany
Distribution: Main: Gentoo Others: What fits the task
Posts: 15,592
Blog Entries: 2

Rep: Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046Reputation: 4046
Back to the original question: "Is there an effort to challenge systemd?"
To answer this question you first have to define if you mean "systemd as init system and process supervisor" or "systemd as a project to have the building blocks of a Linux OS in one source tree".
If you mean the first, yes, there are alternatives, like the original sysvinit, s6, runit, OpenRC and likely a few I forgot.
If you mean the latter: The is simply: No, at least AFAIK nobody is working on that, maybe except a few OpenBSD developers that develop software that provides some of systemd's features that are used by some desktop environments, like GNOME 3 for example.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 01:26 PM   #27
metaschima
Senior Member
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 1,174

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
So far my impression of systemd is that of an attempt at locking Linux in to a single init system, and directly or indirectly stifling alternatives. All the current init systems will need to adapt when they get rid of udev.

P.S. I don't want to argue with fanboys, so just take what I say as an opinion.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 05:52 PM   #28
xyzone
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 10

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I am sorry to have to burst your bubble but not only have the progenitors of systemd already proclaimed that they are unconcerned about non-compliance (you're either on the bus or you're off the bus) but it is already an accomplished fact.
It doesn't matter what they say or want. If systemd is truly unfit it will not survive in the long run.

Quote:
Of course "things will work out" but not by themselves. It takes people to do that and they have to at least be aware a problem exists.
What it doesn't take is people whining on a forum and opening up cute websites. That amounts to roughly zero. Focus that energy on forking GNU/Linux, if you really believe in it. Nobody is going to stop you.

Quote:
I submit that, nor anything else systemd has to offer (which I already outlined) is not worth the changes that not only gives the "back seat" to human text files, but relegates them to the trunk or kicks them out the door altogether.
That's about journald, and the way I see it that could change in the future if there is enough demand for it.

Quote:
If you doubt this, note that Gentoo began the Eudev Project in 2012, and the landscape is profoundly different (and worse) in 2014.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTI1NTE
So what this means is that you should support Eudev if you believe in it.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 05:53 PM   #29
xyzone
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 10

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by capt ron View Post
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

--Martin Niemoller
I don't see what any of that has to do with a piece of open source software.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 09:21 PM   #30
enorbet
Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware 14 is Main OpSys on Main PC, 2ndary are OpenSuSe 13 and SolydK
Posts: 692

Rep: Reputation: 289Reputation: 289Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzone View Post
It doesn't matter what they say or want. If systemd is truly unfit it will not survive in the long run.
I find this rather naive. History does not support "best of all possible worlds" in the marketplace. In early computing for example the Mac system was orders of magnitude superior to DOS/PCs. The very reason Billy is quoted as saying (paraphrased) "Nobody will ever need more than 1MB ram" is because Macs directly addressed 16MB at that time. Furthermore, as dramatized in the Pirates of Silicon Valley film, when MS all bust squashed Apple, Jobs fires out "Our stuff is better!" and Gates replies, "That doesn't matter". His pandering to the lowest level common denominator, skill at glitz and marketing (Poker and FUD campaigns included), obviously succeeded beyond even his original dreams. There is always a market for convenient and cheap and it often drives out real quality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzone View Post
What it doesn't take is people whining on a forum and opening up cute websites. That amounts to roughly zero. Focus that energy on forking GNU/Linux, if you really believe in it. Nobody is going to stop you.
Obviously, I disagree. Since some, like you, are questioning if there is even a need for an alternative to systemd. I counter that view. To dismiss that as "whining" shows your personal bias at odds with mine. I won't stoop to denigrating you, just your naive assumptions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzone View Post
That's about journald, and the way I see it that could change in the future if there is enough demand for it.
Once again your demonstrably mistaken faith in the marketplace is flawed, IMHO. Another example of agenda conflicts ignoring demand and even people with checks in their hand is the original Chevy Volt electric car. Or consider that, especially in the first 10-15 years of production, audio CDs were measurably inferior to tape, not only reel-to-reel but even cassettes. Long before CDs improved, those all but disappeared from sales shelves. We don't even need to discuss mp3's.

Manufacturers/Producers don't merely just fulfill demand. They create it.... and work to drive out alternatives. "He who has the gold, makes the rules" is becoming more true everyday.



Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzone View Post
So what this means is that you should support Eudev if you believe in it.
Precisely one of the reasons I made my posts here. I am not sufficiently skilled to produce an alternative, but if I can support it in any way, I shall.

Last edited by enorbet; 09-06-2014 at 09:24 PM.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[SOLVED] Is VLC Worth the Effort? tronayne Slackware 13 08-09-2013 05:02 AM
Boot Delay 30min: systemd-analyze blame systemd-tmpfiles-setup.service BGHolmes Fedora 0 07-27-2011 09:02 AM
Last ditch effort to keep using linux tothemax6 Linux - Newbie 33 12-14-2008 07:39 PM
last ditch effort at debian race Debian 11 03-22-2004 10:20 PM
Help, is it worth the effort? Jackcnd Mandriva 1 03-06-2004 11:24 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:15 PM.

Main Menu
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
identi.ca: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration