Hi,

Apparently several years ago, Dell was stepped upon by Microsoft to stop selling computers without Windows. Microsoft had to be careful so as not to be fined by the European Commission. Anyway, in Belgium it is almost impossible to buy a notebook without buying Windows.

Except... I just called Dell Belgium - as a 'small business user' and not as 'consumer' - and was put through to somebody in the Netherlands.

I insisted on specifications of a Latitude X1 (rather than the OS).

Then I asked whether Dell has a notebook without Windows (because I use a Linux OS) the salesperson checked with a colleague and then said NO. On the Dell Belgium website there is no procedure NOT TO SELECT Windows XP for notebooks.

I asked if it was possible to get a discount, or not have it installed (because the Microsoft EULA says I can get a refund and do not have to have Windows installed).

The other argument I used was 'I like the X1, it so light. That's just what I'm looking for. But I don't really want to pay for something that I am not going to use'. The salesperson was helpful and understanding.

He offered a discount of EUR89.

Does this happen elsewhere (in Europe?). If anyone has any time or inclination, and is thinking about buying a new notebook, could you call your own local Dell and ask about buying a notebook without Windows?

I think I got a discount as a small business client rather than as a consumer.

Dafydd

Hello,

There is no such thing in Turkey. If you insist on doing something like this, you get the reply that "Win is preinstalled". If you push further to have them "fdisk" the machine and give it to you, they say that whether they do it or not, the licence price is embedded in the cost of the notebook and this will not affect the price.

What I understood from my country is that Dell is importing computers [be it desktop or laptop] with preinstalled Windoze. Of course, to be able to install the os to the computers they have to pay the licence fee. After exporting to the countries there is no chance to reject the embedded licence fee, because Dell will not accept giving away its fee.

Regarding preinstalled win, in Turkey only Datron sells notebooks with Linux preinstalled or without an operating system. My impression is that the market share of this non-win computers are less than 1%.

This whole thing is about users' awareness I believe. If we had more *aware* users, than Dell or other manufacturer would not be able to charge embedded fees so easily.

Regards.

Hi,
There's a small company here in France which sells notebooks with or without Windows installed on it.
They also support the install of Fedora and Mandriva, all with notebooks with the latest specs. You*
can customize your laptop or desktop the way you want.
Since you live in Belgium you may read French. Look et their site. They're very reliable. I bought a desktop
based on the ASUS Pundit 2 years ago, switched from Mandrake to Debian. The nice thing is that they support
Linux and give you any modification they may have done on the sources.

http://www.keynux.com/default_zone/fr/html/home.php

cheers

PS I don't work or am related in them in any sense

The manufacturers don't have any choice. For the big guys Microsoft negotiates a price based on the manufacturers total production. It's a very old Microsoft trick.

That's why the smaller guys are more willing to sell you a computer w/o an OS. They're too small for Microsoft to negotiate any sort of contract with, so they're paying more by the install.

This used to be the case, I am not sure if it is any longer, but there is a loophole in the OEM license stating that if a machine includes the OS and the end user does not wish to use it, the media and license can be returned and the full retail cost of the license is to be refunded.

Saw this in Revolution OS - not sure if its still the case but may be worth looking into.

It's not a loophole, I think, but rather Microsoft wiggling out of a previous US Supreme Court ruling by pretending to offer 'choice'. So now you can 'refuse' Microsoft and get a 'refund'. But read this story on how Dell pays you EUR 40 or so as a refund but charges you EUR 47 for sending back (the Windows sticker and CD):

www lxer.com/module/forums/t/22272/

Also here's the first (semi-official) reply from the Commission. Bloomberg ran a story on my complaint, too. I can send that to anyone whose interested.

Listen, you can make a complaint too, if you live in the EU. If you email me at dafyddabiago ON gmail DOT COMPANY then I'll send the details. IT's better if several normal consumers complain in their own languages to the European Commission.

Here's the reply from the Commission

dafydd


Dear Mr. Ferguson,

Thank you for your email dated I7 June 2006 to the Consumer Officer. This email relates to the possibility of purchasing PCs without a preinstalled Windows operating system.

The Commission is aware of the difficulties encountered by consumers to purchase PCs without an operating system on them or alternatively with another operating system than Windows.

As regards the possibility of purchasing a PC without an operating system, I understand that Microsoft's licensing agreements with PC manufacturers encourage (through the grant of rebates) the pre-installation of operating systems on PCs. However, this does not have to be a Microsoft operating system. The Commission is not aware of any obligation either contractual or financial, obliging the PC OEMs to sell their PCs with Windows operating systems in particular.

Furthermore, it appears that the choice of a PC vendor to offer PC with or without an OS is not so much influenced by the rebate offered by Microsoft than by the existence of effective consumer demand for PCs with operating systems. We suspect that the structure of the market and demand from consumers is the driving force behind the decision by PC vendors to offer Windows preinstalled on the majority of their computers. If this is information is confirmed, the conduct of PC manufacturers would be justified by pure commercial reasons and may not fall under the provisions of EC competition law.

That said we have not yet finalized our review of the market and are grateful that you took time to inform us of the problems you have encountered. Against this background, I would like to take this opportunity to inform you that the Commision intends to examine these questions in greater detail in the future.

Yours sincerely,

Angel TRADACETE COCERA

EUROPEAN COMMISSION
DG Competition
Director Directorate C: Information, Communication and Media
B-1049 Brussels

FWIW, I've never had any trouble buying a computer without Windows pre-installed. That said, I've never bought a laptop, and I've only ever bought two pre-built computers. Generally I tend to build them myself from parts. Apart from anything else this makes it a lot easier to be sure that all the components are Linux compatible (I got bitten by this with the last pre-built computer I bought).

Of course, this doesn't much help with the original problem. Sadly I think the letter from the European Commission is partly correct. If there was a significant demand for computers pre-installed with a Linux system I'm sure most of the big retailers would offer it. It's something of a vicious circle, of course. Microsoft has dominated the market so much that most people aren't aware that there are other options, and so they don't create demand for alternatives.

One idea I find interesting (although unrealistic, of course): suppose all computers would *have* to be supplied with an operating system. If you were willing to pay, you could get Windows, but otherwise you could choose a free operating system. I wonder if that would increase uptake of Linux.

Having said that, when I buy a computer, I would much rather install the operating system myself, even if it was Windows.

Thats what I ran into a while back when I bought my laptop. There are a few vendors who will sell laptops without an OS but they are all big clunky laptops, nothing I would want to use so I ended up having to buy with windows on it to get the one I wanted.