when I don't have a Computer Science degree or years of experience?

I enjoy programming, and if there is any concepts that I don't know, then I make an effort, read and learn(an aspect I also enjoy).

The problem is, without the above credentials, how do I obtain a programming job? I don't want to be stuck in a menial data entry/customer service job for the rest of my life.

What have you done/tried to get one??? Did you list the languages you know on your resume? How long you've been working with them? Any samples of your code that you can produce if asked? Familiar with GIT/SVN?

The only way to GET something is to go after it. List your experience(s), put out your resume, and start asking people. See an ad for a job you're qualified for? Answer the ad. Talk to the hiring managers, not the HR drones.

Assuming that you have "the knack for it," I suggest that the most important thing to do is simply to "get inside." Your job might be menial ... my first job was tearing pages off a line-printer and shoving them through the proper slot ... but it puts you in the position of being seen by people who, one day, will be "people who speak well of you."

Practice humility. If someone's going to say that you're great, don't let that someone be you. If you doubt your own abilities, consider this to be normal. If you don't have "butterflies," that's when to worry.

Be willing to "start small." Do everything that you do to the best of your ability, and ask for guidance even when you're "fairly sure" that you're doing the right thing. Develop trust that the tasks assigned to you "are in very good hands." In other words: "be professional."

No matter what you learn or have learned ... no matter what you now know or will know ... you will constantly be confronted with "existing systems" (which you may loathe to look at, but which make revenue ...), and with "change." You'll be "taking a sip from the fire-hose." You'll develop the skill of "always landing four paws down."

"Those who are faithful with little, will be faithful with much."

Kindly notice that I have never, in this little diatribe, talked about technology or tools.

Build a portfolio of completed programming projects. On GitHub if possible.

EDIT: And, of course, you apply for the job. Don't forget that step.

I'll bet that they have the same system now, only that role is now performed by an actual robot.

Write Code.

Well a tried and true method is to work towards a Computer Science degree.

But you also have to understand that the topic is so broad and there are literally tons of stories, old and new, of people who have done everything minus formal education. If you're a driven self-starter, a person who can work hard, learn on your own, and master the topics which you enjoy and are also marketable, then follow the Nike "Just Do It" mantra.

The reason why I recommend education is because in a formal program you get exposure to a comprehensive curriculum, as well as receive background instruction which explains the origins and theory behind the whole subject area of programming and various languages.

In my opinion the education system in the United States is so broken and only has one mission, profit. It has no goal of turning out competent students, read to work. No amount of money thrown at it will every fix it and it will have to collapse in on itself and enough people have to walk away from the system before it will change.

The works and writing of John Taylor Gatto has proven this to me along with my own experiences in post high-school education (bachelors and masters).

I've taken a number of programming classes in college that move too fast, too heavy on theory, arrogant professors and just a overall bad method of trying to deliver information that I want to turn into knowledge.

With that said, I would say self-study if possible and you will probably come out of it with more experience and wiser then those who went to college for it. With as many resources on the Internet, anything can be learned.

I have to agree with the sentiment here, to a large part. While I DO think that a college education is beneficial, in that it exposes you to many things you might not have learned otherwise, for the most part, it is all about profit for the college. Don't even get me started about the state I live in...football coaches are the HIGHEST PAID public employees, while schools often go wanting for things, in order to pay these bozos.

But to your point, JockVSJock, I was speaking with two college age 'kids' the other day; one a recent graduate, the other about to. They BOTH had learned NOTHING about programming past Java...and next year, they were only going to teach Python. Being a programmer is more about learning how to THINK about a problem, which they didn't teach. They were focused on getting bug-free code, to do task xxx...and that's all it took for a passing grade. Which (supposedly) gave them an education in 'programming' and 'computer science'. Odd, since neither of them had ever heard of the P=NP problem, or Feynmans finite state machine problem. Sigh....

I disagree with this. The people in the United States have been conditioned to believe that in order to be successful, we have to go to college. Just like lemmings have to jump off a cliff, or sheep lead to the slaughter...you have a choice. There is this mythical talk about the "college experience." That is a load of crap. I honestly now believe that I would have had the same experiences regardless if I was in college or not. Remember this is the first time someone from the age of 17-24 is off on their own, typically not living at home, and surrounded by their peers, sharing in alot of the same experiences. Yes, it was an awesome time in my life, however college really didn't play a part in it. Most of my peers at the time weren't in college...just me.

Zero Hedge has an awesome breakdown of the highest paid public employees in the United States.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-12/who-highest-paid-public-employee-your-state

Ask yourself what is the priority. Education or entertainment? Don't even get me start on how much money revolves around these games in gambling and do you really think these games aren't fixed or rigged to benefit someone? Remember, as Brian Tuhoy of the Fix is In said "would you let a multi-million dollar business go to chance?"

I live in San Antonio Texas and there is a local entrepreneur who quipped what if Texas A&M put as much money into their computer science program as they did their football team. Imagine what would happen? I also have lived in South Korea and ever day had to pinch myself to see the advanced technology. It was painful to come back to the United States and see how far behind we were in technology.

I'm not familiar with either P=NP problem or Feynmans, however I would love to learn, but this sounds like theory. How does this solve a business' problems? In my experience, companies need employees to solve business issues/problems with software and to keep them competitive. I don't really think computer science is a science...people are looking for solutions and as others have said on this website and needs to become a trade...

The two most successful developers/computer programmers were guys who ran their own software consulting companies and who had bachelors in liberal arts. All they did was self-study and worked as consultants and built their knowledge and skill from each gig.

I've never met any college professor who had any type of software coding gig on the side, where he or she was working to solve a business' problem or keep up with their skills.

I also remember in late 2002 when I took a C Programming class. The teacher was cocky, arrogant and condescending. I hated him and felt that he took a subject that I wanted to learn so badly and destroyed it. I wasn't the only person who felt this way as we started out with 40 students and by the end only 10 to 15 actually finished the class. What a joke.

I didn't realize it at the time, however I have the power to walk away from garbage like that and me showing up and paying money empowers insanity like that. Never again.

No, I don't think you HAVE to do this at all, by any means. The only thing I can see as a real positive about college, is that your exposure to various subjects is more 'organic', and you may find things you like by sheer chance. Just talking to different folks, wandering through buildings, and seeing things that interest you could lead to you WANTING to learn more about a subject you've never given a second thought about.

It's not required, by any means, and I give it as much weight as I do a 'certification' on a resume.
Agreed. I am so tired of the "Just LOOK how much money the football program brings to the university!" argument, which is crap. Between stadiums and support, dozens of coaches, trainers, gyms (that ONLY the squad can use), etc., it's a money hole. Losing season? The coach is fired, but only after he gets his 7-8 figure settlement.
Well, I only mentioned those because they said they were computer science students...and those are two things that such students should know. Would be like a medical student saying they'd never heard of penicillin.
Agreed...when you're motivated to self-study, you WILL learn tons more, because it's desire that's driving you...not just wanting a decent grade, or to chase a paper certificate.

Personally, I think if someone wants to pursue a degree, that's great, if it's something they WANT. But putting inordinate importance on it is wrong.

However those two individuals had a number of paper certs, which did help launch their careers...Something that they didn't dump. Something they learned, applied on the job and built knowledge and experience.

So go to college outside the U.S?

Maybe...I saw an article were the European colleges were doing class work for three years and then for two years you went into industry and worked and then you go your degree.

Unlike US Colleges where you struggle to get any experience and have to play politics to get anything, yet were promised everything at the door.

With student debt approaching or already at 1 Trillion dollars, having a hard time paying off that debt and finding work that will pay more then a job without a college degree, alot of folks are questioning the value of a college degree in the US.

I'm sure glad I worked full time and never took out a student loan, because debt is the new form of slavery in the 21st century.

What can I say? I went to college, it was a BSEE not computer science. Either case I'm a software engineer. Albeit I have been that for like 30 years. I do have relatives and new hires who have gone though college, largely engineering, and they are similarly very successful. If you go to college to party, you won't learn anything. If you go to college and don't do any work, you won't learn anything. I clearly feel that work study is worth one's while. When looking at a new college graduate's resume and I see that they've interned and what they've done, as well as whether or not they can talk intelligently about their projects, it makes a great difference.

My nephew just graduated from URI with BSEE and he has a great job.
Two kids I know have graduated from UMASS Worcester, one with Mechanical Engineering and one with CS, both have great jobs.
Another niece and nephew graduated from Northeastern, they both have jobs in Engineering.
Got a buddy who has 4 kids all recent college graduates (last 5 years) from the Massachusetts area, one's an architect, one was criminal justice. From what he says, one of them manages a resort/banquet facility which does corporate functions, weddings, and etc, it's a very large place. The architect does management of building projects and I guess pretty big ones because she travels to places for a year or more to do the project. The criminal justice one is just getting started, but it sounds like they lead up asset protection for one of the large Boston stores, not just walking around catching shoplifters from what I gather.
Also know of some other boys in a distant part of the family, varied degrees, but BU, NU, BC, all graduated in the last 10 years and all working.

Many of these kids are marrying and having children, buying houses, etc. Can't say I've heard of any of them being laid off, or out of work.

Written enough, but also erased a lot here because I'm ready to go off on those who trivialize the background and experience one can obtain via proper training, be that self or structured. I largely do feel that it is far and few who can accomplish "self" training to a level beyond being a copier/repeater. I've run into plenty of supposed EE's who don't know the difference between FIR and IIR or even how to implement it unless they google it. Well, they fall the wayside because they're just not there fully. I'm not stuffy about it, there are plenty of people more senior to me who don't have degrees, but the thing is, they participated in some of those theory definitions or proofs, and thus they do know those concepts.

I also have great respect for the electricians, plumbers, HVAC people, car mechanics, you name it. We have them in the family too. Two of the most well of persons are an electrician and a plumber. A distant retired guy is an excavator. Couple of guys work in stone, like the granite curbing for roads and has the contract for the state. Another guy does both septic and gas (which we do laugh about the duality of his business) but he's doing great.

People can excel in all careers, but you can't just expect the career to do it for you.