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embed 01-26-2010 07:43 AM

Hacking scene?
 
Demo scene and free software scene seem organised into social networks but hacking scene seems to lack such an organization. By "hacking" I mean real hacking(in Raymond's or RMS's sense), not 2600 "h4><0rz".

I'm personally a hardware hacker wannabe, and have some projects like alternative power supply(li-ion battery)for my gp2x or using old Nokia LCDs for new purposes.

I failed to find generic hacker forums and newsgroups, as the ones claiming to be either consist of or heavily tainted by script kiddie lamers. I search for the information on the web and find what I need on blogs usually, or comp.arch.embedded group but that didn't quiet satisfy me in the social sense.

What is your stance regarding hacking, and how do you(if any) communicate about your hacks.

MS3FGX 01-26-2010 09:14 AM

Well, as a long time writer (and much longer reader) of 2600, I am a little confused by your first statement. 2600 has never been about "leet haxorz", and indeed predated the mainstream popularity (and missunderstanding) of the hacking scene by quite a few years. While I will admit that some of the articles published in the last 4 years or so have been either of questionable legality or sense (often, both), this is not really the fault of 2600 as an organization. The technology world changes very rapidly, and so do the people in it, and at the end of the day it is those people who send the articles in. It isn't surprising that articles you or I would never have considered get submitted by younger and perhaps less focused individuals.

You also seem to switch your opinion around a bit in the middle. First you ask for hackers like Stallman, and then say you are looking for hardware hackers. With all due respect to RMS, he is certainly not the first person I would think of when looking for information on contemporary hardware modifications or research. He is very much about politics and morality, which just happens to bleed over into his interest in computers.

carbonfiber 01-26-2010 10:04 AM

It is rather amusing when various individuals use "h4><0rz" in order to differentiate from "real hackers". Persons who gain illegal control over other people's computers are real hackers. Perhaps this was not the meaning of "hacker" in the beginning, but it certainly is one of its meanings today. Get over it. As for you, MS3FGX, it would seem you express contempt towards these "leet haxorz". Some of said "leet haxorz" have fairly excellent technical skills as far as computer programming goes.

MTK358 01-26-2010 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by embed (Post 3840859)
Demo scene and free software scene seem organised into social networks but hacking scene seems to lack such an organization. By "hacking" I mean real hacking(in Raymond's or RMS's sense), not 2600 "h4><0rz".

I'm personally a hardware hacker wannabe, and have some projects like alternative power supply(li-ion battery)for my gp2x or using old Nokia LCDs for new purposes.

I failed to find generic hacker forums and newsgroups, as the ones claiming to be either consist of or heavily tainted by script kiddie lamers. I search for the information on the web and find what I need on blogs usually, or comp.arch.embedded group but that didn't quiet satisfy me in the social sense.

What is your stance regarding hacking, and how do you(if any) communicate about your hacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbonfiber (Post 3841016)
It is rather amusing when various individuals use "h4><0rz" in order to differentiate from "real hackers". Persons who gain illegal control over other people's computers are real hackers. Perhaps this was not the meaning of "hacker" in the beginning, but it certainly is one of its meanings today. Get over it. As for you, MS3FGX, it would seem you express contempt towards these "leet haxorz". Some of said "leet haxorz" have fairly excellent technical skills as far as computer programming goes.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

Dogs 01-26-2010 11:02 AM

I don't prefer the term hacker, as that requires me to fit the paradigm which I unfortunately didn't spend my entire childhood mastering..

I prefer the term "Unconventional Engineer"

In any case, I would love to have e-friends that had interesting hobbies such as the ones described above, and wouldn't mind communicating such information to a fairly experienced linux user/C programmer with a huge interest in cryptography, networking, security, and modding everything from toothpicks to cannons. (Computers sit nicely between toothpicks and cannons, as a delicate mediator with little bias for either of the two.)

carbonfiber 01-26-2010 01:14 PM

Never mind. Experience dictates that I can not win this argument. I have long considered ESR a particular type of idiot, and his work mostly rubbish. I will say this: there are many individuals ("not real" hackers, crackers, l33t h4x0rz) who show real talent and skill in the art of computer programming. It is easy to dismiss them by condescendingly calling them "leet haxors". At the end of the day, they don't care what you or ESR call them, chances are they more know than you - and as such have little or no regard for your opinion. I appologise for being offtopic.

MTK358 01-26-2010 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbonfiber (Post 3841243)
Never mind. Experience dictates that I can not win this argument. I have long considered ESR a particular type of idiot, and his work mostly rubbish. I will say this: there are many individuals ("not real" hackers, crackers, l33t h4x0rz) who show real talent and skill in the art of computer programming. It is easy to dismiss them by condescendingly calling them "leet haxors". At the end of the day, they don't care what you or ESR call them, chances are they more know than you - and as such have little or no regard for your opinion. I appologise for being offtopic.

I thought the OP meant that "h4><0rz" use their knowledge for no good, not that they don't know anything.

embed 01-27-2010 03:54 AM

I think I should've worded myself more precisely(some skill I lack).

I'm aware that there indeed are cool articles on 2600 and phrack, and I enjoy reading them. I respect skilled and sensible crackers(or a nicer phrase "Security Hackers") a subset of "real hackers". By "|-|4><0rz" I mean "lamers/script kiddies" in proper language, as they have more tendency to use the abomination called l33t. I did not say RMS or ESR are type of example for hardware modification, I said I use their definition of the term "hacker".

What bothers me is the usage of "hacker" exclusively for "malicious people looking to harm your computer and steal your data". I think I am a bit conservative when it comes to language and get over it, but also it hurts when a term you define yourself gets warped and twisted and distorted and taken from you.

Now that this is (hopefully) cleared out, back to the main question, what is the preferred way of exchanging knowledge opinion of ESR Hackers/Unconventional engineers? My current one is subscribing multiple communities (forums, mailing lists, newsgroups), each related to some interest I have, and demoscene forums for generic geek talk.

Dogs 01-27-2010 10:21 AM

In my experience back in the day, the way it'd work out is --

"Man, <xxx> is so awesome." - hacker
"What is <xxx>?" - me
"Let me tell you all about it!" - hacker

Not really verbatim, of course, but close enough. Most of the direction of conversation had to do with me being curious and a bit of a social engineer, and being able to build a friendship with someone on the fly. (but this was on IRC)

Best days o' my life.

I could only imagine that a "hacker" forum would be much like a "gun" forum, in which 99% of the members are too afraid of the subject to ever actually learn about it, but nothing will stop em from discussing and contemplating scenarios in which being *superl33t* would save someone's life or whatever. Typically this information isn't shared outright, but generally the amount of "hackers" that would gladly share and assist with the knowledge were almost as common as the ones who wouldn't.


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