Grand Alien debate
 

OK since we now have seperate threads for religion and evolution let's add missing piece to complete current origin trilogy puzzle aswell - extraterrestials.

This is topic is to discuss everything related to ET's or Aliens with little to none colliding with religion and evolution. And if you think there can't be possibility for them think again! Science currently supports this idea - for starters have a look at how our Earth compares to other objects in universe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4iD-9GSW-0

Still think we are alone? And there are plenty more related material out there approoved by science facts that shows our universe is capable enough to allow possibility not just for one Alien group to exist but for dozen more! So yea - let's get this discussion moving further! :)

:shrug:

While there is lot's of evidence supporting ET playing with us in the past.

http://dmmimages.smdg.ca/dmm/A/N/Ancient_Aliens_003.jpg
http://www.ancient-code.com/12-facts-about-puma-punku/#
http://www.atlantisquest.com/Nzc0001.jpg
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/imag...1a365006fa.jpg

I figure now they are just watching and waiting to see if we kill each other off.
I know I would not feel like communicating with us losers.
I think every time they have crashed here. It has not boded well for them.

I don't see any reason to believe that humans had any extra-terrestrial origin.

If aliens were here, we'd all be dead soon after their arrival. This is not the case, and so we can file ET away with the rest of the religious and paranormal phenomena.

Al-Qaeda in Outer Space is real and they have a moon base. The government wouldn't lie about something like that. :p LOL

I'm with the Pope on this one. He's got authority and he says the Earth is flat and Galileo is a conspiracy theorist.

All I know is there's at least one Alien involved in Slackware project.

Regards.

Again - your personal beliefs doesn't affect reality.

This sentence is plain ridicilous! Unless they are less intelligent than us which would also prevent them from space travel to our Earth to begin with, any higher intelligent beings would either hide and watch us from distance or infiltrate in our midst but not destroy us! I agree humanity is really pushing it often but they will never push it to the breaking point where they will be asking for complete destruction of mankind - that limit is far from us yet. Just silly - with all our history, results and future possibilities - any sane being would let us continue existing without second guessing and maybe even join us + help us.

The best thing to do is put yourself as the alien. Say that humans are the aliens, as they may well be.

Some questions need to be answered:
1) A colossal amount of technology is needed for space travel, and even more so for very long distances. A huge amount of energy is also required. Why invest all this ? What do you expect to get out of it ? What is the purpose of it ?
2) Say that humans are the aliens, they land on an alien planet full of primitive creatures. What happens next ?

My thinking is: If aliens are traveling in space, they are looking for something they need, perhaps they've run out of resources on their own world. After all, why else would they invest all this into space travel ?

Some would say, well they want to explore, and help primitive civilizations all over the universe. I'm sorry to say that resources are limited, and they have no reason to help anyone out of the goodness of their own ... do they even have a heart ? No, there's always something they need in return. It may be plausible that they would want to trade, but why bother, when they can simply take ?

Or maybe they want to just say hello, or hide and spy on us. But, that just doesn't seem likely calculating the investment. It would take them a very long time to get here even at the speed of light. Also imagine hitting even a small object at that speed. And what would they eat, and what would power them ?

If I were an alien, I would do one of two things:
1) Make a massive mining ship. Travel to planets that are uninhabited or only slightly so and get the resources we need. Fly home and unload.

2) Make a massive battleship. Travel to inhabited planets and deal with the inhabitants making way for mining expeditions and maybe even colonies if it is habitable to us aliens.

There is a technical third way:
3) Make a recon ship. Travel to planets and survey them for minerals and habitability. This is dangerous tho, and the ship will still need to be large. If you come up against resistance, you're as good as dead. Surely the aliens have developed less dangerous ways of surveying planets from afar.

Take a look at what happened with explorers here on Earth. What happened when ships landed on foreign shores ? Yes, I guess things looked good for a short while, but then things got ugly.

They may be hungry and we could be lower down on their food chain. YUM YUM.

Or they have a totally different morality than ours and just get from our planet what they want. DOn't make the mistake to humanize possible aliens, they are most likely not humans or even humanoid, this is not Star Trek.

Odds are there are other life forms in the universe. Similarly, odds are we will never meet them, or even know they actually exist.

The following quote is attributed to Bob Park, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Park .

"Choose the nearest star; decide how long you're willing to travel, how fast you will need to go to get there in that time, what you will have to take with you, and how many should be in the crew. Make it a one-way suicide mission if you wish. As a final step, calculate the kinetic energy that must be imparted to the spaceship to get you there in that time (one half the mass times the velocity squared.) I suggest you stay away from the relativistic limit; it complicates the calculation and won't help you anyway. The good news is that you will then sleep secure in the knowledge that UFOs from elsewhere in the galaxy are not subjecting humans to hideous experiments." --Bob Park

lol

It seems to me that if an alien race had a mostly-viable means for interstellar travel and anything like a human psychology, you could almost guarantee that some of them would find a reason to take to space.

Early human explorers spent months or even years in cramped wooden vessels, knowing that one bad storm could mean death, relying on an unreliable power source, with limited food and risking a beating from any natives if they managed to make landfall. Some of those who came home were disfigured from exotic diseases, yet more went.

I know space is a lot bigger than the oceans, even allowing for differences in technology, but there may be mitigating factors. The aliens may be running from trouble at home; they may be very long-lived, or have found that faster-than-light travel is possible; they might naturally live in space, lazily drifting between stars; or they might simply be both more advanced and more curious than us.

Visits would be less likely if they were hostile - it'd be easier to attack from afar using their technology of choice. If they had good radio receivers and could decipher some of our scientific documents, they might design a super-virus to render us (mostly) harmless. How much energy would it take to launch a capsule containing a few milliard virus particles?

Alternatively, they could troll various websites and stir up enough trouble to keep us fighting amogst ourselves, or better still, provide such stimulating blog posts that we all stay in front of our monitors and slowly atrophy.

Maybe we all have alien origins way back in the earliest reaches of time.

On the first day, God created prebiotic soup. And on the second day, He created boron and molybdenum, sprinkled them on the soup, and said: "Let there be Life".

This is a very human and a very earthbound perspective... we cannot know what extra terrestrials would think like or if they would have the same emotions and needs as humans.

We can certainly tell how we humans would behave if we escaped the confines of our planet - it would be pretty much as you suggest and every sci-fi from Alien to Avatar has probably got that close enough (in fact all except star trek, which is quite possibly the most implausible, idealistic sci fi ever created). The human advance into space and colonization of other worlds would bring on the next generation of conquistadores, like those depicted in the film Avatar - the explorers would really be miners and their escorts, working for some mega corp. We can't freely assume that ETs would be driven by the same needs without falling for the fallacy of humanizing (ref: TobiSGD's post) them first...

Where both Avatar and Star Trek fall down, is that they definitely humanize alien life forms to make them acceptable to the viewer in terms of their appearances and their morals/ethics/values or they simply make them outright animal. The "greys" who have featured in most supposed sightings of aliens are also humanized, humanoid, bipeds - in fact, to real aliens, they would probably look almost exactly like humans.

The way ET can fit is if ET is god-like, i.e. has no needs or wants, has infinite resources, has unrealistic "humanitarian" goals. It's basically a religious figure morphed to fit into the ET genre. That's the only way it could make sense. Because this is in fact the real world, where resources are finite, where living things need resources, and where everyone looks out for themselves first and foremost, and only if they have enough to spare do they look towards helping others, and only if they expect to be paid in some way. This is the only way that makes sense in the real world.

As for the sightings, I will never believe that a humanoid alien abducted some redneck, as it is much more plausible that the redneck was drunk or high or wanted attention and made the whole thing up, and being limited in imagination could only create a humanoid alien abduction story. I mean why humanoid when there are so many forms one can take ? Take a look at all the deep sea creatures, and horseshoe crabs, etc. They have to be humanoid, because there has to be the next step in "logical" connections i.e. that they are our creators, they are our gods, and they will come back and help us ... or maybe just kill us all and/or take us to "heaven".

I do wonder about all the alien shows they run now. Maybe they are planning on staging some alien incident and using this for political advantage. Just a thought.

Sheesh, I guess I took your Lunch money in High Skool or one of my compadres did.

How about this, since Mex is in your handle. Lot's of sightings in Mexico. No rednecks there asking for attention. Sheesh. (I work out in the Sun, am white, and my neck is sunburnt). But. I be a enlightened redneck.

http://www.ufosightingsdaily.com/201...er-mexico.html

Or did they take your lunch money too once?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ0eStQd3KI

Is there life elsewhere in the universe, undoubtedly. It's an act of purest arrogance to think otherwise. Is this life capable of/interested in/ actually visiting our planet? I very much doubt it.

And I beleive both these things for the same reason. The sheer scale of the universe. The human brain is not capable of any sort of intuitive grasp of just how big it is.

An alien civilisation with the resources at hand to cross intersteller space, let alone intergalactic, would persecute drunken morons on deserted highways why exactly?

Lets be honest, human beings are capable of the most spectacular delusions, which is more likely? Honestly?

~Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

~Eric Idle

That one on the front page looks like a meteor for sure.

As with religion, I'm somewhat of an agnostic to the idea. It would seem extremely likely that there are aliens out there, but highly unlikely that we've been visited by them.

That is similar to someone at 50,000+ years ago thinking that there is no way that people will ever figure out how to cross major oceans.

We have no idea what sort of space travelling technologies might be possible.

I'm assuming that our solar system is fairly typical and/or any visiting aliens have to come so far that they have to pass various solar systems to get here.

There is only one resouce that you'll find on earth that you'll either not find elsewhere in the solar system, or if you do find it there will be very limited amounts. That is living things and biomass.

Well, OK, you will find lots of free oxygen here as well. But that is not worth the effort and resouces to come here to get it. The amount of energy needed to come here would probably be several factors higher than finding CO2 and then stripping the carbon.

Who knows what value biomass and genetic material is 'worth' to alien cultures and technologies?

That reminded me of recent Vatican publication about that they admit alien existance and that they are also God's creatures. Can't find that video but this once is also from same since it is about chief astro-scientist in Vatican.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gB7QhHcYIE
That has yet to be confirmed..but with our current knowledge about observable universe - it is highly possible we are not alone. Remember people in past also believed Sun rotates around Earth and Earth was flat and similar stuff - somehow all this changed aswell and what was science fiction in past is now everyday common stuff for today and future is not so far either - they are already planning on flying cars etc.. :)

From media reference, they're tend to be looking for gold, which is kind of rare, because in theory it is only produced in supernovas. Other rare metals are also plausible candidates.

There is a few theories around about how gold is formed.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...215848391.html

As far as aliens coming to earth to mine gold goes, I doubt it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1018141608.htm

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/ther...oids-1C8392355

Its not certain exactly how much gold and other rare metals are in asteroids..but I'd doubt that the earth would be a better source than asteroids in our solar system.

To go further, its quite possible that some other solar systems have much larger amounts of gold and other rare elements than our system.

Elements are everywhere in the universe, and they are (as far as we know) the same everywhere. We dont know how common life is, and its almost certain that life will have far greater diversity than boring elements. ;)

Indeed who knows, maybe the nearest aliens live on earth in another dimension and can step though to ours using a small device powered by the equivalent of a 9v battery - it's all pure speculation.

However, given the sheer scale of the universe two things are almost certain. Life almost certainly exists in other places, biomass will be massively more prevalent than intelligent life and that intelligent life is unlikely to ever discover us.

Even 50,000+ years ago, and however risky it might have been, floating across a body of water to the next island would hardly entail the same sort of obstacles that traveling many light years to another solar system would.

Funny you mentioned TV material because this is not Mars attacks either. :D

Thats 3 things (lief exists elsewhere, biomass is more common than sentience, sentinent life is unlikely to find us).

I agree on 1 + 2, but not 3.

Its possible that other sentinent life wont discover us. However, there are a lot of assumptions in that point of view. I dont think we have enough data either way.

Are you sure about that?

I didnt say 'island hop' for a good reason. That in many situations can be achived with limited expereince and knowledge in very primitive craft (which is how people got to australia at least 40,000 years ago).

To make a proper ocean going vessel and then to cross an ocean requires a much higher technical skill level. The knowledge required is also much higher (requires at least basic navigation, reliable water and food storage).

IMO the diference between a coast hugging raft that never leaves sight of land of vs ocean going vessel is at least possibly comprable to the difference bwetween a chemical rocket/shuttle that barely leaves LEO and a vessel capable of interstella journeys.

At least as sure as you are.

I worded my response specifically as counter-point. Ancient humans possessed the technology to make ocean voyages, even to land masses not visible beyond the horizon. It may have been risky and/or foolhardy, but there was some remote chance of finding land and surviving the journey.

IMO, traveling to any other solar system using any available modern technologies, or any that may be developed in the foreseeable future, is simply not feasible. In another 50,000+ years? Maybe, but that, as has been pointed out, is merely speculation. I hold no faith that the human species will still exist. But that is another topic entirely.

You don't need things like the hunger for resources (be it rare materials or biomass) to find a reason why advanced civilizations will do interstellar travel. There is a much easier reason why they must travel between stars. Any civilization that handles the dangers of becoming extinct will at some point be forced to leave their own solar system: when their sun dies (unless they invented a technology that can rejuvenate stars).

Hmmm, I am in driving distance of Roswell and Marfa lights.

Might check out Aurora Texas also.

You know how funny us rednecks can be.

Weather balloons, atmospheric phenomena, and meteors/comets can explain pretty much all the lights you might see in the sky. The rest can be explained by confabulation and falsifying evidence.

Well two things are certain, I can't count!

It depends on your definition of ET. If we limit it to single-celled organisms, then I'd say that's most likely. We know that single-celled organisms can live without oxygen and single-celled organisms existed on the Earth for at least a billion years before multicellular organisms came about.

For intelligent life, that's harder to say. The Wikipedia page has a good sections on possible explanations to the Fermi paradox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_p...hypothetically

Here's another possible alien:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterbear

Mmm, weird little critters.

Almost forgot to mention "Ancient Aliens" TV series - yes it does contain false info but while it is not completely accurate it does contain a lot of interesting and real information that will start your curiousity from which you will move further - like ancient construction site mysteries. :) It can be watched on youtube btw. ^^

I think giving aliens the credit for building great monuments is somewhat of an insult to ancient architects, especially considering their lack of sophisticated tools. It just proves that what you need most is a good mind, and you can make do with less sophisticated tools.

The most interesting shows are the ones that show modern engineers trying to reverse engineer how the ancients built the structures.

O rly? Then explain how everywhere on Earth same type structures were built? What knowledge was used, where it came from and why none today know how to recreate it and why even using modern machinery we lack results? Actually i believe there are people groups who know but they hide it..question is - why? Also there were also some person who kinda prooved and actually knew how it was done but once again he took his secret in grave and refused to reveal it and left us only results - few books and Coral Castle creation. Doesn't this activate inner question - Why is it so important yet kept in secrecy??? Cause it might be key to solving this puzzle.

Maybe but i have yet to see any show where modern engineers actually succeed in reverse engineering.. :)

I don't see any reasons why aliens should visit earth, build some monumental buildings and leave without leaving any other hint for their existence. I rather see it like H_TexMex_H, some people in past times had brilliant minds, in the same way as some people in our times. Nikolai Tesla has invented mind boggling technology that was way ahead of his time and parts of it even today are not fully understood. That is in no way a sign that he was influenced by aliens, all it shows is that this guy was a genius. Why should this be different for ancient people? And why should simple geometrical designs, like pyramids, not be common throughout the world, especially to those people that had the knowledge to build monumental structures, for which a certain amount of planning is mandatory?

I saw a piece of a show on aliens where they said that all the geniuses of the past were influenced/assisted by aliens. Yet another insult to them.

I think the first thing that humans ever built was a mound. Pyramid or pyramid-like structures, because after all not all pyramids are the same even tho believers in aliens seem to think so, were an optimization and beautification of the mound. Also, as most houses at the time were cube-like, the pyramid or pyramid-like structure was the best choice while maintaining the cultural / religious significance of the mound. Believing in aliens adds unnecessary complexity and assumptions to something that can easily be explained without adding aliens.

I also saw on one of the alien shows about some underwater city somewhere in the Mediterranean. Somehow aliens were needed for its construction, when the more plausible explanation is that it was a city that simply sunk into the sea.

Rocks are long lasting material(maybe this is a reason why they were created)..pyramids point to Sirius(there is a myth about Sirius and beings living on it) and etc. clues - it makes perfect sense more than your theory that in past primitive, recently evolved from monkeys, humans using primitive tools and knowledge that was less than today knew stuff that we don't know today and then suddenly lost that knowledge after those structures were made and even after so many years we can't repeat same process. Is this joke or just brilliant acting? Missing links just prooves something is not revealed. It doesn't make any sense that in past humans could do more than we today and theory of evolving further..something is messed up!
Insult? Are you serious?! You were also born to this world clueless and while you grew up your development was assisted by your family, people around you, in school, in work etc. Does that mean you are worthless human being?

This is something we agree - underwater buildings could be made by humans and later just drowned but still it doesn't answer question - how they were built by primitive ways yet not today?

Here's the main problem which gets uprooted again and again: If you leave room for the unexplained, people will fill it with nonsense of various kinds.

It's a pity because there was an opportunity not long ago, when this void could have been closed once and for all, but someone stepped in and stopped it from closing. Although I don't agree with the move, maybe it was necessary.

According to biologists Homo Sapiens is around for a much longer time than when those monuments were built (famous biologist Richard Dawkins estimates 200-250.000 years, Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project estimates about 100.000 years for the existence of Homo Sapiens). Also, we are not directly evolved from monkeys (if you even can say that in that form, how do you think evolution works?), there were more human kinds in between us and our ancestors.
If you look at history you will find that from the beginning of what we know about history many civilizations vanished from Earth, many of them we know nothing about. So why would it be unlikely that this also happened with those people that built these monuments?
Why would aliens that have the technology to travel the stars need to rely on rocks to transport their messages? Shouldn't they have better ways?
Nope. A missing link only proves that a link is missing. Anything else is speculation.
In the past many people knew a lot more about how you can use plants for medicinal practices and even today (or at least in very recent history) people living in separated environments (for example people living in the South American rainforests or similar places) know many things about the powers of plants for medicinal usage that we people in the "modern world" just don't know. This is not because these people were visited by aliens, but because we aimed our research in a different direction. Nowadays scientists are looking at the powers of plants again, but they have to learn many things those people could have told them.

Still no aliens necessary to explain all those things.

That is something we could agree on but we still need to explore.

Pity? Void? Someone who can stop and start such stuff? Agree on move only you know happened? etc? I'm so sick of people who talk much but proove little. WTF happened "not long ago" and what is this "void" anyway?!? Why only chosen few know what is really going on? Unless you are one of those who just pretend they know better..this trashtalk and guessing games is waste of time.
And according to those who study those monuments claim opposite that they are here from beginning of humanity. So what?

Because if they left they need evidence behind about their existance etc. and rock is very long lasting material. It lasts for lifetimes if properly kept. This is why even in IT world people say "rock solid".

True but the fact that people refuse to talk about missing link in details is suspicious.

I definitely agree on this one. Society today pale in comparison of most past times. It doesn't mean humanity is failure but we have achieved more regress than progress lately. That's sad.

Aliens are not necessary but this is still possibility. It could fix missing link problem aswell.

I hope that you don't mean people like von Däniken or the producers of the "Ancient Aliens" shows or similar "scientists".
Anyways, it is very simple in science, if they claim something they have to be able to prove it. I yet have to see that anybody can prove that those buildings are 100,000 years old, I would think that this would be a sensation that would be discussed amongst people world wide.

A civilization that has mastered interstellar space travel should have much better materials than rock to provide proof of their existence. Even we have better materials (graphene or carbon nanotubes, for example).
People in the field of biology and evolution do this quite often, I would think.Just have a look at the Evolution thread in non-*NIX/General.
So on the one hand you agree that in certain fields we are less knowledgeable than our ancestors, on the other the same lack of knowledge in other fields is proof enough for alien theories?
Only if there actually is a missing link problem.

LOL..of course not. Actually i can reveal small secret - that show is already 'debunked' but that is not what is important. Important is that you watch it because it expands your divergent thinking and it simply is neccessary to introduce yourself to different materials to gain proper results. Also just because it contains flaws doesn't mean core of shows like that is fake.

Agree but it works both ways. We have yet to see modern people with modern technology repeating same process. This is just silly. All they have to do is repeat what people who built those past monuments did and explain how it works in basic level so that every student knows in school and we would know that there is no need for God or Aliens. Not to mention even if for some reason they were made by humans science still lacks answer why were they made? Purpose of those creations are also mysterie to solve yet.

Back in day maybe it was only material but it doesn't matter. Rock still does the job. Also we don't know how advanced that civilization is nor do we understand why would they do what they did if they did.

I have not studied Evolution that much to have valid detailed view of my own but i have found plenty other people that helped humanity(again many popular past scientists like Newton and even A.Einstein agreed there was or is space for God) who after study of Evolution comes to conclusion that something is missing. And if their conclusion is not important then why bother with some linux forum user opinions?

The problem is not that we have lost knowledge of past today but that current situation has explanation while past events don't. People in past compared to nowadays had more interest in progress and were less lazy but today people just don't care. They just want to fit in society but we can't get progress without stepping out of rutine. This is different. People knew stuff but chose to lose it while past events regarding those construction mysteries are with less sense.

There is missing link problem - otherwise this confusion about how humans came to be would be cleared out long time ago. Instead of thinking we would just know.

Your last post suggests you are right on the mark, you guessed what I was talking about, and the right names too.

But i don't know what is really going on. I just know that there are way too much predictions and theories that turn out to not work in praxis. So can you enlighten? If not then why not?