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From the Infowars article:
"...an anti-war Islamic extremist with links to suicide bombers goes on a shooting rampage at a U.S. army base, reinvigorating support for the war on terror and demonizing opposition to it as anti-American extremism."
I disagree. The horror of this incident prolongs and exacerbates the pain and stress dealt with by military members, their families and friends, and indeed many people with no military connections at all. Taken together with other "rampage" incidents in the military over the last few years, and combined with the recent outbreak of civilian spree killers, I would think it would make more people want to end these conflicts quicker by any means possible.
I would think it would make more people want to end these conflicts quicker by any means possible.
That is the standard response of the left. It adds up to reward those who attack you. People who might want to attack you are not stupid enough misunderstand that policy as those who advocate it misunderstand it.
The media and our leaders are certainly that far to the left. But I think the American public aren't and I'm sure those associated with the military aren't. So while the intent of that infowars statement was the opposite, the part you quoted is literally true. This attack will strengthen resolve in those who had any to begin with.
Someone attacks you because you will not give them what they want. Will giving them what they want stop them from attacking you or will it cause them to want more and attack more (because it works).
In this particular case, I don't think we know enough to estimate whether it was simply a homicidal nut or whether it was a true attack on US policy. There are nuts who just want to kill. Many of them want to "kill for a cause", but only the desire to kill is real and the cause is bogus. If that cause weren't around they would find a different cause to kill for.
To adjust your policy because many of the nuts who want a cause to kill for are converting to islam, would be pointless. At best they would find a different cause.
To adjust your policy because it is a truly motivated attack on that policy is even stupider.
You need to put it in context of the whole world and make a rational judgment whether you are fighting a group that is defending itself by whatever means necessary and only because you are fighting them, or whether you are fighting a group that focused on attack and will continue attacking where ever there is the slightest hope of gain, and will take any compromise as a sign of weakness and a reason for further attacks.
You need a complete set of leftest blinders to have any doubt about the above in this conflict.
I don't believe our decision to invade Iraq was wise. I don't believe our current strategies in Iraq or Afghanistan are the most effective means of defending ourselves. The US should not be the world's policeman and we don't need to go fight everyone who hates us. But we do need to have consistent policies that make it clear attacking us is not the path to controlling us.
There is a lot of evil in the world. Being nice to evil doesn't make them your friend, it makes you their victim.
That is the standard response of the left. It adds up to reward those who attack you. People who might want to attack you are not stupid enough misunderstand that policy as those who advocate it misunderstand it.
I didn't say I agreed with that position, it's simply my assessment of how many people might think after such an incident. For example, after the Battle of Mogadishu in October 1993, many of my friends, family, neighbors, etc, were very upset at why we were even in Somalia in the first place. Before the battle they were not upset at all. But after it, they were, almost to a man/woman, screaming about Viet Nam. Most of them understood the basic issues (the UN, the Marines, clan warfare, etc) but didn't care. They wanted U.S. troops out ASAP and that was the end of it.
Quote:
In this particular case, I don't think we know enough to estimate whether it was simply a homicidal nut or whether it was a true attack on US policy. There are nuts who just want to kill. Many of them want to "kill for a cause", but only the desire to kill is real and the cause is bogus. If that cause weren't around they would find a different cause to kill for.
I agree. The man was definitely crazy. What motivated him is largely irrelevant; people are dead and nothing can bring them back. However, one of the things that sets crazy people apart from the rest of us is that their actions only make sense in their own twisted minds. The rest of us will never understand, even if the stated motivation is related to a relatively common/mainstream political or religious issue (e.g. not all people opposed to the war are spree killers).
Quote:
There is a lot of evil in the world. Being nice to evil doesn't make them your friend, it makes you their victim.
Absolutely. This is my frustration with the Pakistani government's policies towards al-Qaeda and the Taliban, and with people who think Israel should swallow its pride and devote itself to "resolving their differences" with Hamas, people who think the U.S. should give up arguing with North Korea and just start cutting multi-billion dollar checks each month, etc. The 1930's should be required reading around the world for those (and many, many more) reasons.
linus,
this is an international forum...some might be over here. i know muslims which for sure do not hate me (or another non-muslim just for not being a muslim). dont badmouth them.you may find "stupid" people in each group.
please.
(heck: the half of my hood is muslims from all over the world, im pretty well over here.we are doing just fine.)
Well, as I said, unless their Quran is somehow different....
Would you like me to quote the Quran regarding treatment of non-muslims?
No, i dont want. why:
there are also some "good" things and some "bad" things in the bible.Just for a "bad" quote you cant say all christs are bad.
It would be a pitty fellow-users-hackers-whatever would have to move away from this board... i cant explain it better.
And i wont do it in further posts.
Not heating the soup up, so to speak.
Quote:
Well, as I said, unless their Quran is somehow different....
Im not that much interested in such stuff (religion). Each to his own.
(from what i know there are different "distros" of islam. most people over here are from turkey, but from other places too)
heres some facts about your peaceful religion Islam
please note the passages concerning women
human rights and Islam
Quote:
Here are some examples which clearly show that Islam is diametrically opposed to universal human rights.
While Article 18 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights prescribes: “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief ….” The Koran prescribes the opposite. It says about freedom of thought, conscience and religion:
“O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Sura 5, verse 51).
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away!” (Sura 9, verse 30).
And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.” (Sura 2, verse 120).
“And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.” (Sura 2, verse 191).
“So when you meet those who disbelieve, strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either confer favor afterwards or ransom them. That is the command. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them, but He ordered armed struggle to test some of you by means of others.”(Sura 47, verse 4)
“Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, heshall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.” (Sura 3, verse 28).
Freedom of religion?
And what does the Koran say about freedom of religion and about those who turn their back to Islam and commit apostasy?
Quote:
“They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them (the unbelievers) friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and KILL them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.” (Sura 4, verse 89).
While the UN Declaration of Human Rights condemns in Article 2 any discrimination based on sex by saying, “Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status,” the Koran calls for discrimination against women. It says:
“Men are superior to women because Allah has made so. Therefore good women are obedient, and (as to) those (women) on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.” (Sura 4, verse 34).
“And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them, four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.” (Sura 4, verse 15).
Hmmm...Womens rights?
Quote:
Men are allowed to beat women:
“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.” (Sura 4, verse 34)
According to the Koran, a woman’s testimony is worth half of that of a man:
O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time then call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other.” (Sura 2, verse 282).
As far as sex is concerned, women are sex objects, according to the Koran. They must be ready for intercourse any time the husband wishes:
“Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.” (Sura 2, verse 223).
According to the Koran women are, in general, unclean creatures. After a Muslim has washed and prepared himself for prayer, he should not touch a woman. Therefore, “pious” Muslims never shake hands with women.
“O you who believe! do not go near prayer until you have washed yourselves; and if you have touched women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.” (Sura 4, verse 43).
In case of inheritance, a woman inherits half of the portion a man inherits:
“They ask you for a decision of the law. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring; if a man dies (and) he has no son and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no son; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brethren, men and women, then the male shall have the like of the portion of two females; Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things.” (Sura 4, verse 176).
The Hadith is also full with passages that brazenly discriminate against women and followers of other faiths. Here are some of these passages:
Women are deficient in intelligence and religion:
"The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Book #6, Hadith #301)
Women who pass by a praying man annul his prayer:
Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul prayer were mentioned before me (and those were): a dog, a donkey and a Woman. I said, "You have compared us (women) to donkeys and dogs. By Allah! I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in (my) bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I disliked to sit and trouble the Prophet. So, I would slip away by the side of his feet." (Book #9, Hadith #493)
A Jew also annuls the prayers of a man:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: Ikrimah reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas, saying: I think the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw. (Book #2, Hadith #0704)
Women are solely for beauty, status, and believers. Their brains are insignificant:
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status. her beauty and her religion, so try to get one who is religious, may your hand be besmeared with dust. (Book #008, Hadith #3457)
Women are crooks and useless creatures:
AbuHuraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: woman is like a rib. When you attempt to straighten it, you would break it. And if you leave her alone you would benefit by her, and crookedness will remain in her. A hadith like this is reported by another chain of narrators. (Book #008, Hadith #3466)
Distribution: Damn Small Linux, KateOs, M$ Ickdows Vista, My own OS
Posts: 2,094
Rep:
Quote:
wake up world cause its coming
heres some facts about your peaceful religion Islam
please note the passages concerning women
human rights and Islam
Quote:
Here are some examples which clearly show that Islam is diametrically opposed to universal human rights.
While Article 18 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights prescribes: “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief ….” The Koran prescribes the opposite. It says about freedom of thought, conscience and religion:
“O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Sura 5, verse 51).
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away!” (Sura 9, verse 30).
And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.” (Sura 2, verse 120).
“And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.” (Sura 2, verse 191).
“So when you meet those who disbelieve, strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either confer favor afterwards or ransom them. That is the command. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them, but He ordered armed struggle to test some of you by means of others.”(Sura 47, verse 4)
“Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, heshall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.” (Sura 3, verse 28).
Freedom of religion?
And what does the Koran say about freedom of religion and about those who turn their back to Islam and commit apostasy?
Quote:
“They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them (the unbelievers) friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and KILL them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.” (Sura 4, verse 89).
While the UN Declaration of Human Rights condemns in Article 2 any discrimination based on sex by saying, “Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status,” the Koran calls for discrimination against women. It says:
“Men are superior to women because Allah has made so. Therefore good women are obedient, and (as to) those (women) on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.” (Sura 4, verse 34).
“And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them, four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.” (Sura 4, verse 15).
Hmmm...Womens rights?
Quote:
Men are allowed to beat women:
“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.” (Sura 4, verse 34)
According to the Koran, a woman’s testimony is worth half of that of a man:
O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time then call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other.” (Sura 2, verse 282).
As far as sex is concerned, women are sex objects, according to the Koran. They must be ready for intercourse any time the husband wishes:
“Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.” (Sura 2, verse 223).
According to the Koran women are, in general, unclean creatures. After a Muslim has washed and prepared himself for prayer, he should not touch a woman. Therefore, “pious” Muslims never shake hands with women.
“O you who believe! do not go near prayer until you have washed yourselves; and if you have touched women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.” (Sura 4, verse 43).
In case of inheritance, a woman inherits half of the portion a man inherits:
“They ask you for a decision of the law. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring; if a man dies (and) he has no son and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no son; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brethren, men and women, then the male shall have the like of the portion of two females; Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things.” (Sura 4, verse 176).
The Hadith is also full with passages that brazenly discriminate against women and followers of other faiths. Here are some of these passages:
Women are deficient in intelligence and religion:
"The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Book #6, Hadith #301)
Women who pass by a praying man annul his prayer:
Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul prayer were mentioned before me (and those were): a dog, a donkey and a Woman. I said, "You have compared us (women) to donkeys and dogs. By Allah! I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in (my) bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I disliked to sit and trouble the Prophet. So, I would slip away by the side of his feet." (Book #9, Hadith #493)
A Jew also annuls the prayers of a man:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: Ikrimah reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas, saying: I think the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw. (Book #2, Hadith #0704)
Women are solely for beauty, status, and believers. Their brains are insignificant:
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status. her beauty and her religion, so try to get one who is religious, may your hand be besmeared with dust. (Book #008, Hadith #3457)
Women are crooks and useless creatures:
AbuHuraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: woman is like a rib. When you attempt to straighten it, you would break it. And if you leave her alone you would benefit by her, and crookedness will remain in her. A hadith like this is reported by another chain of narrators. (Book #008, Hadith #3466)
Anyone who would refute this
Please make sure you haver read your Quran!
Some of us have sane moderate right wing views on the topic of Islamic extremism, plus we have Islamic friends. When you imply all Muslims are allied with the extremists, you are agreeing with those extremists and delivering their message.
I think you have a historically accurate view of the meaning of the Quran. My Muslim friends disagree with that being even historically accurate. But what it meant historically is just a matter for history. There are a large number of Muslims who believe that is what it means now. Trying to make nice with them is stupid. But I think the vast majority of Muslims in the world don't believe in spreading their religion by killing. Saying they must be your enemy because of something you translated out the Quran is also stupid.
Quote:
I wonder how many Japanese or Germans were serving in US forces during WWII?
Now you see what we've got here. This is exactly what they want. The original articles mention many possible shooters. Now they mention only one, who to me seems to be the least likely suspect, the guy was peaceful, a psychologist, and he acted normally before the incident. But here you all are expressing your hate towards Arabs and Muslims and this likely innocent suspect.
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