hi buddies ,

how many of you are lispers? (that's lisp programmers)
i'd guess you are using clisp , given that it's one of the prominent and active OS projects in the lisp language domain.
apart from the good piece of software that they have written and still maintain i've a PET PEEVE with them !

which is , they put a jewish menorah as their logo it can be seen on the main project site , which is here
http://clisp.cons.org/

but not only that , they also shove it in your face every time you run the clisp interpretor in a form of an ascii logo .
seriously , that's naive and pretty unacceptable if you ask me !

i mean why the freak put a a bleeping religious symbol as a logo for your software project ?
i don't get the logic , aside from the authors trying to get the message across that jews are "better" at code or something...lol it's pathetic either way!

so i say , if you're a secular person or even perhaps an atheist like myself who laughs at religion aloud for being the bronze age bullshit superstition that it is , i suggest you send these folks an email (just like i did a while ago) telling them , how "highly" (sarcasm) you think of their religious symbol.

to conclude this , i'm not against jews or something but i believe that religious people should rather shove their symbols and icons elsewhere !

cheers

http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-menorah-why
And I would like to draw your attention to Hopefully this will assist you in your endeavour.

I don't have a problem with it. It's just a logo, not a big deal.

They explain why they do it in their FAQ.
I'd say it's more political than religious. Nevertheless, Clisp is free software and their creators (or current developers)
have the perfect right to choose any logo they want (IMO).
If you find it offensive or unacceptable, there are many other Common Lisp implementations you can choose.


edit: didn't see XavierP's post

As mentioned - if it bugs you, don't use it. Make a fork that removes the logo from the code. (But expect people to accuse you of anti-Semitism if you do so).

And entz you are the kind of person who gives atheism a bad name.

well thanx for pointing this out xavier but I already knew this , i mean not this particular faq but the general mindset of the religious and that also includes the jewish and zionist ones .

yeah they gonna justify this by saying "oh you know what the menorah represents light .....bla bla bla " or "we should save the jews who are being oppressed and threatened by everybody like the nazis , catholics , muslims ....bla bla bla bla "

you know what , when i think of judaism in general i think of a vile superstitious dogma that can only be described as brutal and absolutely sickening , just look at how many people the old testament condemns to death ...homosexuals , sabbath breakers , naughty children ..etc etc.

to excuse this logo as a political message is even worse , for instance israel is in fact a theocratic apartheid-like regime that is based on jewish nationalism , it deports , murders and besieges the indigenous people of palestine , violates UN resolutions , maintains a nuclear arsenal of appr 200 nukes including long range delivery systems and completely disregards human rights and international conventions like the geneva convention ....etc

but as i said in my earliest post , i DON'T get the logic , do you ?

well regarding the authors "perfect right" , i beg to differ !

freedom of speech is necessary and essential , it's as a matter of fact a human right however abusing a publicly available resource as a vehicle to spew propaganda or to misuse it for obnoxious or partisan causes is off limits !

Primarily BECAUSE it is FREE SOFTWARE that lies in the public domain , therefore it should not be attached to any agenda whether political , religious or otherwise .

that's my opinion on the matter , and btw imagine if the original authors were neo nazis from stormfront.org who "decorated" clisp with an ascii swastika or some muslim hackers or something who smeared it with a calligraphy of "Alluha Akbar" or any other bullshit that carries a controversial or biased opinion that is non-technical?

the bottom line is that , everything that is in public domain should NOT be abused for culture wars or to advance non-technical opinions.

and btw regarding me personally , i'm going to re-compile clisp with a different ascii logo

cheers folks


EDIT :

Ah you posted before i clicked the post button...

What? .. i'm giving atheism a "bad" name or i might be an anti-Semite ...WHY is that ?

you see all i'm asking for is to remove religious symbols from public resources and facilities , i don't see how that is anti semitism , that's called being secular .

a quick note about "anti semitism" , most people do NOT know the origin of the word and what it actually means , a semite is an adjective that broadly refers to the people and culture of the middle east in other words it's a misnomer therefore using is politically incorrect.

as for giving a bad name to atheism , well i regard that as a double standard , because when jewish sympathizers are putting a religious symbol on something then it's OKAy , but when an atheist objects then he/she is giving a bad name to atheism ?

and btw just a quick side note , the true courage is NOT to applaud the popular zionists who are advertising for their agenda while the IDF kills civilians wholesale but It is to stand up for what is morally right even if it means standing against the wind...

cheers

Look, I get your anti-religion stance, I really do. But, at root, it's their project and they can use whatever logo they wish. If it were a real problem - and I doubt you are the first atheist to use the project - then this would have been resolved a number of times. As to using a swastika - no doubt that has been tried and no doubt it has failed. If you use a really offensive logo or name, then no one will use it at all. Especially if you have to say "oh yes, I'm using Redneck Racist Linux"

My assumption is that once you get away from their website and once you have closed the README file, the menorah is no longer apparent. Just keep repeating to yourself "it's just a candelabra".

good that we atheists can agree on something ...LOL

as for your assumption , um ...not really , i've hacked around with clisp since 2007 !
at that time i did for about 2 weeks until i was put off by the logo as well as me losing interest in general in the language.

about six month ago , my interest in common lisp had re-surfaced so i gave it a fresh start and i've been using clisp ever since with quite alot of fascination and enthusiasm to the extent of me regretting not digging into this technology much much earlier !

however , i'm still irritated every time i fire up clisp and having to look at a bunch of candles which represent the light of a false and non-existing god (a blood thirsty jealous god i might add).

you see my primary reason for this protest (which i think you mutually share with me , correct me if i'm wrong) is that in our lives we are tolerating way too much bullshit (to be frank).

for instance , we tolerate religion in politics , schools , public life.
we tolerate obnoxious street preachers with sigs reading "fags burn in hell" and all that jazz.

and among other intolerant and intolerable atrocities ..we tolerate homeopathy which as james randi says is absolute "quackery" lol ...etc etc

and yeah before i forget , we are PERFECTLY fine with catholic priests sprinkling water on the forehead of newborns and then telling us that the child "has accepted the lord and savier jesus christ into its heart" OH, what was that your eminence ?
now somebody might suggest , "it's just a water dude" , but we all know that there is more than just meets the eye and it is called (in this example) childhood indoctrination.

the reason however , why i decided to bring this issue up today and not let's say 3 years ago is because.....Well i'm gonna explain it this way:

i've been begrudgingly moving along with my mouth shut for quite some time and today my patience has ended !

Cheers Man

I don't see any problem in it.
Sure, it's a political statement, just ignore it if you don't agree with it.

Do all your friends (in the real world) share the same political/religious view? Would you stop seeing them for using a "menorah"?

Entz, I think that the best thing to do now, having said your piece, is to "drop the subject." Perhaps the idea of including a religious symbol in a software product is in bad taste; frankly, I agree with you. But you've said your piece now. Let's move on.

With all the stuff going on in the world, I am frankly appalled that anyone would get upset about the logo being used for a particular SW project.

Very often, when someone is expressing strong opinions or feelins about something, they are not telling you what their real issue is. Sometime they might not even know.

Yeah, I'm going to stop using Firefox because there's a cross for opening a new tab, and a st andrews cross for closing it. I'm not christian or scots, so why should I put up with it?

You know what offends me? Using a cross to ward off vampires. What's wrong with using something non-religious or using the FSM?

As we travel through this life, there will be many many battles to fight. Best to pick the ones to expend energy on. I don't use the project directly so this does not affect me in the slightest. I live in a pretty moderate and secular country - we really don't discuss religion that much here so maybe my view is warped. Basically, they don't try to push this down my throat so I don't see a problem with it. If the project required you to donate to Israel or say a prayer before using it then yes, I would be right beside you marching on the internet headquarters. As it is, it's a few pixels and is easily ignored.

Take a deep breath, ignore this and concentrate on new and exciting ways to troll the Westboro rallies.

Look, generally I agree with you about all this religious stuff (religion imposed on babies, etc). I am with you on all of this, but
(unlike the babies you mentioned) nobody FORCES you to use clisp. You are conscious of your own decisions. Either you accept it with everything it comes, or ditch it - it's really simple. Or as someone pointed out - get the source and change it.

It's usually religious folks that complain that something (a film, a book, etc.) offends their religious feelings. I usually say then: just don't watch/read it - and stop complaining.
I'd think that atheists are able approach such things more rationally and with appropriate distance.
I really doubt clisp people are going to remove the symbol because of this thread - and that's why you started it, wasn't it?

I would look at it in a completely different way if something was IMPOSED on you. If you had no other option. That's clearly not the case.
Moreover, they don't claim that clisp is for Jewish people only. I still think it's got nothing to do with religion as such. It is more an expression of their political support.

Anyway, I ended up writing more than I wanted. My main point is as long as nobody forces me to use something that doesn't agree with me, I don't have a problem with it. If it is my own choice, I have to deal with it then.

btw, I know it's not the best analogy, but can anyone email *BSD guys - I don't believe in Satan

Personally I can't understand why anyone would want to use a lisp derivative.

I have some terrible memories from University ... (some of things other than lisp as well it must be said ... )

Okay , in the meantime i've hacked the code and took care of the issue !

for the the record , i've created a blog about this very subject with a link on it to a secular version of clisp.

you can call it "sclisp" pronounced "sch-lisp" LOL , though the point is not to create an official fork but rather to serve as an initiative .

here it is, read , laugh and lisp (if you want)

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ar-clisp-2831/

okay , now it's time to respond to some interesting opinions

well i say because there is so much mess going on in the world we need to care about the little things !
perhaps the reason why the big mess is going on and has always been going on is because people have always been willing to tolerate the status quo out of sheer laziness or cynicism .... Food for Thought !

what , firefox uses a freaking cross to open new tabs ??
um...not really , as the "cross" you're talking about actually is meant as a PLUS sign and thinking of it ...what is the best sign to represent the creation or addition of a new tab? .....hmmm ...let's give this some serious brains !
oh yeah a PLUS what else !
therefore it has a clear secular purpose , in other words your strawman argument fails but nice try though ...haha

eh , actually it's a religious statement of affiliation , the authors make it unmistakably clear that the candelabra is to be interpreted as a jewish menorah (unlike the tab plus in firefox which resembles a cross) , they even made a special menorah for the jewish fest hanukkah , including some elaborate code that lights candles in accordance with ceremonial practices , not to mention that this piece of code contains variable and function names that carries religious significance such as "hanukkah" , "hebrew calendar" ...etc

and as for your question , well i'd appreciate it if you could be more clear , did you mean using a menorah in private , public , at the workplace , in the class room , or on my work desk ?!

the answer to that is , i don't mind them using it in privacy however using it in public buildings or on MY PERSONAL COMPUTER is definitely a reason to a pick a fight !

obviously i have a right to control what runs on my box , and i don't want some code lighting candles on it in celebration of some mystical cleansing ritual that was meant for a temple because some nutter metaphysically "contaminated" it with pig blood ....i may also add the temple in question doesn't actually exist ! (or at least not anymore)

and that's the irony of religion -aside from its absurdity- always attempting to shove itself down your throat in mysterious ways ...LOL

i hope that answers your question to your satisfaction

well a rational response to your argument , would be in a similar token of my earlier response to the tab cross in firefox ....however speaking of satan i'd like to elaborate a little bit more , i know this is getting lengthy but what the heck i'm entertained i hope you're too

alright , so according to the "church of satan" the largest and most prominent satanic cult known to exist , defines satan as follows i para phrase "satan represents the true carnal nature of man rather than a deity that exists in the metaphysical ..."

to put it clearer , satanists generally don't believe in satan as a deity unlike what christians , muslims or jews tend to think of what the the devil is!

that said , anton szandor lavey who is considered the founder of what is nowadays known as satanism wrote a book called "the satanic bible" , in it there is a chapter that outlines this point very clearly entitled i guess "pact with the devil and how to sell your soul" in which he states (i para phrase) "unfortunately you can't make pacts with satan because you' don't have a soul to bargain with nor does he exist as a deity in the first place"

now that was quite interesting , don't you think ?
dare i suggest that satanists are atheist ???

but i digress ,

so you say that the BSD logo represents satan , well how did you know?
all i'm seeing is a caricature that is demon-like , so it could be anybody from lucifer , belial , beelzebub , mephisto , levathian ...etc to something that is completely different like the pagan pan with his horns and cloven hoofs .

or maybe .. just maybe as the BSD documentation suggests is actually a depiction of a secularized version of the mystical greek concept spelled "daemon" which was thought of as "a spirit that works in the background , commanded by a god to carry out jobs the gods themselves can't be arsed about" !

in BSD however as you surely know , the "daemon" is a program rather than a spirit and the god is the user who launches it .

again , here we see something that can be interpreted in a mystical manner but has a clear secular value or designation.

Absolutely yes Sir , we NOW can move on !
now that the business has been finished and the all the necessary words have been spoken.

Thank YOU