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Old 01-03-2008, 09:18 AM   #46
kahlil88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wraithe View Post
PS, ohh yeh...Linus is one hell of a nice guy...
If he has such a big ego, then good on him, he deserves to...but then your probably jealous as he has given a functional os to the world for free...did you know he still teaches, cant be gettin rich teaching...Whats Bill Gates doing these days?...
You say this as if he created the whole system. He created the kernel, which is an essential piece, but useless by itself. The largest chunk of the system is GNU, and my argument is that it's unfair to refer to the entire OS as "Linux", not only because very little of it actually is, but also it gives people the wrong idea about the sytem's history and how the OS actually works. For example, I often hear people say "Linux looks better than Windows", but what they are looking at is NOT Linux, but GNOME or KDE, or maybe even Compiz-Fusion. Linux exists because of GNU, and people need to acknowledge this. He didn't GIVE the world a functional OS, he completed an existing one.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:20 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by wraithe View Post
gnu/linux, hmm that was adopted when released under the gnu license agreement by Stallamns free software foundation...

Linux got its name because the bbs administrator needed to use a file name for the os...(oh yeh, BBS is pre internet...goes to show how old i is)...

Linus used the minix code as his base and completely reworked it to come up with the linux code...

Linux's architecture is server based, ie the kernel is the base with server module linked in to use gui, devices etc, this way when one crashes it only takes you to reboot the server, ie when x crashes you just reboot x....

GNU is not dependant on linux, and vicaversa, as linux base is functional, albiet limited...
BSD has nought to do with linux, its another os all together...

GNU is a licensing agreement, or what ever the lawyers like to call it, its basically a document of legal terms to keep the money grabbers away and allow freedom of use for the average person...

Your not that old, I remember BBS :P
I used to love them, getting all these neat little demos and such.

I knew BSD was an entirely different OS, but GNU software can be used on it.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:24 AM   #48
proc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahlil88 View Post
You say this as if he created the whole system. He created the kernel, which is an essential piece, but useless by itself. The largest chunk of the system is GNU, and my argument is that it's unfair to refer to the entire OS as "Linux", not only because very little of it actually is, but also it gives people the wrong idea about the sytem's history and how the OS actually works. For example, I often hear people say "Linux looks better than Windows", but what they are looking at is NOT Linux, but GNOME or KDE, or maybe even Compiz-Fusion. Linux exists because of GNU, and people need to acknowledge this. He didn't GIVE the world a functional OS, he completed an existing one.


Actually he did create his own base tools as well, but those were scrapped in favor of gnu tools. And technically they are right to call KDE or Gnome better then windows (ie Linux is better then windows) the reason this is because BSD has limited hardware support therefore not all the functions will be available to use under KDE with compiz since BSD is not big on 3D acceleration. So what other system can do it without a Linux like layer underneath?

Again Linux had it's own functional base therefore GNU did not make Linux, Linux was adapted for GNU
it was complete, it was limited but complete for his purposes.

Last edited by proc; 01-03-2008 at 09:27 AM.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:31 AM   #49
kahlil88
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Originally Posted by proc View Post
And technically they are right to call KDE or Gnome better then windows (ie Linux is better then windows) the reason this is because BSD has limited hardware support therefore not all the functions will be available to use under KDE with compiz since BSD is not big on 3D acceleration. So what other system can do it without a Linux like layer underneath?
I agree that KDE and Gnome are better than Windows, but my point was that people often say "Linux" when they mean something else. However, it's perfectly acceptable to say "Linux" when talking about hardware support, since the kernel is what runs the drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
Again Linux had it's own functional base therefore GNU did not make Linux, Linux was adapted for GNU it was complete, it was limited but complete for his purposes.
I didn't say that GNU made Linux (maybe in a metaphorical sense). I only pointed out that Linus Torvalds used GNU tools to create Linux, which functions as a kernel for the GNU system.

Last edited by kahlil88; 01-03-2008 at 09:34 AM.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:33 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by wraithe View Post
Whats Bill Gates doing these days?...
Giving away all his money through his own charity with himself as the only donater? The funny thing is that Bill Gates has no ego at all. Hell Bill actually reads Slashdot. I don't see Linus do this if he would live to be a million years old -_-'Apart from software Bill Gates is actually doing the world a huge favor.

Last edited by V!NCENT; 01-03-2008 at 09:34 AM.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:41 AM   #51
proc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahlil88 View Post
I agree that KDE and Gnome are better than Windows, but my point was that people often say "Linux" when they mean something else. However, it's perfectly acceptable to say "Linux" when talking about hardware support, since the kernel is what runs the drivers.



I didn't say that GNU made Linux (maybe in a metaphorical sense). I only pointed out that Linus Torvalds used GNU tools to create Linux, which functions as a kernel for the GNU system.

I disagree, even tho the kernel supports the device if there are no user land utilitys to provide the support there is still no support, because there is no way to interact with that device, other then sending garbage to this device node.

So to be fair it's no different then me saying Linux instead of GNU/Linux, it's either all or none. You can't blame hardware entirely on the kernel for not being supported, yet demand people start calling Linux "GNU/LINUX" if it's "GNU/LINUX" then hardware support is also related to GNU.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 10:25 AM   #52
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[disclaimer]i only read the first post[/disclaimer]

what's more important: the kernel or the interface ?

(what's more important: the engine or the chassis ?)
 
Old 01-03-2008, 10:26 AM   #53
kahlil88
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Originally Posted by proc View Post
I disagree, even tho the kernel supports the device if there are no user land utilitys to provide the support there is still no support, because there is no way to interact with that device, other then sending garbage to this device node.

So to be fair it's no different then me saying Linux instead of GNU/Linux, it's either all or none. You can't blame hardware entirely on the kernel for not being supported, yet demand people start calling Linux "GNU/LINUX" if it's "GNU/LINUX" then hardware support is also related to GNU.
Drivers do not run in userspace with a monolithic kernel (such as Linux). They run in kernelspace, so if your hardware isn't working, it's because your kernel doesn't have drivers (or maybe it just has crappy ones). The part of the system that is GNU has very little to do with hardware support.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 10:37 AM   #54
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Why don't we just call it "Da Thing", so nobody gets offended?
 
Old 01-03-2008, 10:48 AM   #55
proc
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Originally Posted by kahlil88 View Post
Drivers do not run in userspace with a monolithic kernel (such as Linux). They run in kernelspace, so if your hardware isn't working, it's because your kernel doesn't have drivers (or maybe it just has crappy ones). The part of the system that is GNU has very little to do with hardware support.
Thats quite a silly view...
example of how silly that logic is... just because there are kernel drivers for a device doesn't mean it's supported if there is no application to use this device, how can you say it's supported? Example of this would be with web cams, there are drivers yet there are some web cams that apps don't play along with too well, this indeed has nothing to do with the kernel, it has to do with how the application is using the device. so to say hardware is 100% the linux kernel's fault without actually looking into why certain functions aren't working is quite foolish, I am going to go as far to say that it is quite stupid to do so.

Does this mean memory leaks in applications are the kernel fault too?
Or printers or scanners...lol I can list a lot unsupported features that are SOFTWARE related.

So my view has not changed, accept Linux flaws as GNU flaws or get GNU out of my face. because all this sounds to me is one giant GNU is perfect and everything should bow to it... if that's the statement you bring then get out of my face zealot!!!

Last edited by proc; 01-03-2008 at 11:08 AM.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 11:20 AM   #56
kahlil88
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Originally Posted by proc View Post
Thats quite a silly view...
example of how silly that logic is... just because there are kernel drivers for a device doesn't mean it's supported if there is no application to use this device, how can you say it's supported? Example of this would be with web cams, there are drivers yet there are some web cams that apps don't play along with too well, this indeed has nothing to do with the kernel, it has to do with how the application is using the device. so to say hardware is 100% the linux kernel's fault without actually looking into why certain functions aren't working is quite foolish, I am going to go as far to say that it is quite stupid to do so.
How the application interacts with a device depends on the driver. If you have a generic driver, certain features will be disabled. I'm not placing blame on the Linux kernel - if your modem, webcam or video card doesn't work it's because your driver is lame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
So my view has not changed, accept Linux flaws as GNU flaws or get GNU out of my face. because all this sounds to me is one giant GNU is perfect and everything should bow to it... if that's the statement you bring then get out of my face zealot!!!
That's not what I was saying at all. That's like blaming your steering wheel, seatbelt and gas tank for a flat tire, instead of that large nail poking out the side. The point I was trying to make is that when people call the entire system "Linux", it gives people the wrong idea about how the operating system works.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:16 PM   #57
proc
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Originally Posted by kahlil88 View Post
How the application interacts with a device depends on the driver. If you have a generic driver, certain features will be disabled. I'm not placing blame on the Linux kernel - if your modem, webcam or video card doesn't work it's because your driver is lame.
Then please explain why Kopete and other apps with web cam support have different problems with different web cams some work on some software, but that same web cam won't work in another program?

Quote:
That's not what I was saying at all. That's like blaming your steering wheel, seatbelt and gas tank for a flat tire, instead of that large nail poking out the side. The point I was trying to make is that when people call the entire system "Linux", it gives people the wrong idea about how the operating system works.
How does it? If they read the documentation which they would have to sometime or another to anything gnu based they would see gnu... I don't see the point of wall papering GNU on everything that uses GNU, BSD doesn't do it and they have an even less restrictive license, it changes nothing. Your scenario where if GNU didn't exist neither would Linux is absurd, all the features and stability in the Linux kernel will never be in the HURD kernel therefore the Linux kernel will always be there with or without GNU. Linux is not a GNU kernel and it never will be.

Last edited by proc; 01-03-2008 at 12:18 PM.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:43 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by V!NCENT View Post
You're right, but then again Linux is not necessarily a server OS either. My point I try to make here is that Linux is not useless without GNU.


It depends on what you what to do with your computer. A GUI adds a lot of functionality to a desktop IMO: just look at what is possible with OpenOffice.org alone.


Oops I forgot about GCC . make: apt-get, tar: zip, for grep: write a simple QT app that can read input via the standard C++ lib no big deal, ftp:Konqueror, telnet: it's a protocol and not a app (I am sure this is somewhere else implemented in a DE or GUI app), rsh: use X (for example remote desktop in ubuntu), rlogin: again X, tftp: this is a protocol not an app just use Konqueror.

Ofcourse removing GNU apps is a little stupid (Windows like OS) but GNU is not necessarily required.
If you made a qt app to replace grep, then how would you use it in the command line?
chgrp, chown, chmod, cp, dd, df, dir, du, ln, ls, mkdir, mkfifo, mknod, mv, rm, cat, cksum, head, tail, md5sum, nl, oc, pr, tsort, join, wc, tac, paste, basename, chroot, date, dirname, echo, env, groups, hostname, nice, nohup, printf, sleep
I think it would be kinda hard to not use ls and some of the other commands in a command-line enviroment
 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:46 PM   #59
kahlil88
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Then please explain why Kopete and other apps with web cam support have different problems with different web cams some work on some software, but that same web cam won't work in another program?
Good point. In general, device support depends on kernel drivers, but then you have things like Winmodems, which are designed (quite evilly) in such a way that they are primarily controlled by a piece of software, that might be impossible to reverse engineer. I suppose the same thing can happen with webcams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proc View Post
Your scenario where if GNU didn't exist neither would Linux is absurd, all the features and stability in the Linux kernel will never be in the HURD kernel therefore the Linux kernel will always be there with or without GNU. Linux is not a GNU kernel and it never will be.
It's hard to say whether or not that's true, since we can't easily alter history and find out, but you can't deny that GNU played a very big role in the creation of Linux.
I think the main reason Hurd hasn't been finished is that Linux already exists, and many programmers don't see why the world needs another kernel. But from what I understand, the microkernel design is better than the monolithic design. More complex and harder to debug, yes...but there are many advantages.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:49 PM   #60
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I diffently agree that GNU has played an excellent role in Linux's growth! There is no denying that.
 
  


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